A Royal Descent or not?

[Jayson]

I'm sure this topic has been covered many times before and apologise for going over old ground but nevertheless I'd be really interested to know if any members here have established a royal connection and the sources used to prove it.

Quite by accident, last weekend when I had nothing else better to do, I decided to do a little research and found a possible royal connection via an old family tree of the Stanley family of West Bromwich which I found in a book relating to the history of Staffordshire. 

In it my ancestor John Wolseley of Wolseley was said to have been married to Elizabeth Stanley. Not knowing anything about her apart from the information given on this little tree.  I decided to look at her ancestry in more detail.  Her father was George Stanley.  But her mother, Eleanor, according to the family tree was the daughter of John, Lord Dudley.  Going back through his Dudley ancestry on Wikipedia I reached the marriage of Sir John Sutton to Katherine Stafford.  But in the footnotes section there seems to have been some confusion as to the identity of John Sutton's first wife.  Was it Katherine Stafford or Margaret Mortimer? I don't really know.

Katherine's parents were Ralph Stafford and Margaret Audley.  Margaret Audley was the only child and heir of Hugh Audley by his wife Margaret de Clare.  And it was through Margaret de Clare I found the supposed royal link.  Her mother, Joan, was the daughter of Edward 1.

I don't really know what to make of it and want someone to tell me I'm barking up the wrong tree.           

[Guy Etchells]

I have recently whilst browsing collateral lines found a very distant connection to royalty but I mean very distant.
In no way is it a blood connection as it was through children of a sibling of a person married one of my ancestors.
But it was interesting to me and would have been really interesting to my mother had she been alive now, but for personal reasons rather than the distant connection to royalty.

Cheers
Guy

PS you may find Leo van Pas' Genealogics site of interest
http://www.genealogics.org

[Jayson]

Thank you for the link, Guy.

I've been trying use as many sources as possible like Burke's Gentry and Peerage for instance but how reliable these sources actually are is open to question as I have found errors and contradictions from volume to volume when I've checked against parish registers, etc. 

I wonder what sources Burke and other genealogists like him used before parish registers began? 

   

[Guy Etchells]

There are many sources prior to parish registers many which extend after parish registers in the same way as parish registers extend after civil registers.
However be aware medieval documents will normally be written in Latin.

Patent rolls 1201 to the present day, Fine Rolls, Charter Rolls, Close Rolls, Wills, Inquisitions Post Mortem, various types of Court Records, including Court of Wards which dealt with inheritance.

There were land records, muster records, a hundred and one different types of tax records etc. etc.
However be aware many of these records as with parish registers may require more evidence to ascertain relationships fully.

Cheers
Guy

[Colin D Gronow]

"Burke's Gentry and Peerage" the 1840's equivalent of "Ancestry Trees" or from Oscar Wilde "..it is the best thing in fiction the English have ever done!"

[davidft]

The problem with listing names without dates is it can be hard to establish which specific person you are talking about. This is especially true in families that repeat a lot of names as both the Sutton's and Dudley's do.

I would be inclined to say what Wikipedia has told you is wrong and that you need more research, this is not to say you will not be able to establish a gateway ancestor that will take you back to royalty just that you have not done so, so far. I have seen various estimates from 25 to 40 per cent of "English" people can trace their ancestry to royalty if only the paperwork survived ! 

A site i use that has lots on royal and noble families is

http://roglo.eu/roglo?lang=en  (use roglo.eu/roglo?lang=en  if it does not work with the http:// prefix)


but this site does not confirm Eleanor married to George Stanley, if I have the right pair

http://roglo.eu/roglo?lang=en;i=3009829

However it does confirm Catherine Strafford as the daughter of Ralph Stafford and Margaret Audley, and the wife of John Sutton

http://roglo.eu/roglo?lang=en;i=2115473

[Guy Etchells]

"Burke's Gentry and Peerage" the 1840's equivalent of "Ancestry Trees" or from Oscar Wilde "..it is the best thing in fiction the English have ever done!"

No don't confuse the authoritative records of the 19th century Burke's Peerage to the later compliations of the 20th century after the titles & name were sold off.
As with all records there were errors, partly due to the Heralds Visitations of earlier times containing errors and forgeries but in the main Burkes was a good source.

Cheers
Guy

[Colin D Gronow]

In the same way "Ancestry Trees" is a good source, provided they have done the research properly. But a "Source" it can only be, it's up to you to check the original record.

[Jayson]

In answer to davidft

Yes, you have the correct couple according to the family tree that I have. 

My own family appear in Burke's Gentry (1908 and 1937 editions) under Bayley of Willaston Hall which makes reference to the Wolseley family of Wolseley Hall and the Bayleys connection to them.  The current edition of Burke's Peerage under Wolseley of Wolseley names Elizabeth Stanley as the daughter of George Stanley, of Bromwich, Staffs, and that her husband was John Wolseley who died in 1553.  But what it doesn't say of course is who George's wife actually was.

This I found in an old book on the history of the county of Staffordshire (not from Wikipedia) which has Eleanor, daughter of John, Lord Dudley, widow of Henry Beaumont and wife of George Stanley.

Frustratingly, Wikipedia doesn't mention the daughters of the 1st Baron Dudley by his wife Elizabeth Berkeley. Only his four sons are mentioned.

I agree with Guy re Burke as a good source.  Although I have found errors in it on balance it has proved to be more reliable than unreliable.

Jay