Author Topic: A Royal Descent or not?  (Read 7115 times)

Offline pinefamily

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Re: A Royal Descent or not?
« Reply #18 on: Tuesday 02 February 16 21:47 GMT (UK) »
Without quoting chapter and verse, I have to agree with Guy on the Visitations. It has been proved that there are several pedigrees with fanciful origins. This is not to say that the descent from the original bearer of arms is not correct, but some of the ancestral links for the original bearers have been called into question.
As both of you have mentioned, it is a source, and like all sources, one to be used and compared with other sources.
I am Australian, from all the lands I come (my ancestors, at least!)

Pine/Pyne, Dowdeswell, Kempster, Sando/Sandoe/Sandow, Nancarrow, Hounslow, Youatt, Richardson, Jarmyn, Oxlade, Coad, Kelsey, Crampton, Lindner, Pittaway, and too many others to name.
Devon, Dorset, Gloucs, Cornwall, Warwickshire, Bucks, Oxfordshire, Wilts, Germany, Sweden, and of course London, to name a few.

Offline Jayson

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Re: A Royal Descent or not?
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday 02 February 16 21:55 GMT (UK) »
David80

I've found your posts regarding this topic especially interesting. 

In your opinion, do you think the College of Arms would have the relevant documentation to prove one way or another whether George Stanley's daughter Elizabeth (or Anne depending on which site one is on at the time) married John Wolseley?

Jayson  :)
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Offline David80

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Re: A Royal Descent or not?
« Reply #20 on: Tuesday 02 February 16 22:20 GMT (UK) »
Hello Jayson, thank you.
I'm sorry about the mess I seem to have made on your line discussing records with Guy.

David80
I've found your posts regarding this topic especially interesting. 
In your opinion, do you think the College of Arms would have the relevant documentation to prove one way or another whether George Stanley's daughter Elizabeth (or Anne depending on which site one is on at the time) married John Wolseley?
Jayson  :)

The answer is if anyone has it, then they do. They might not but these ancestors are influential people so I would have thought it very likely. If you want to know then writing to them is the perfect way to go. The address is: The Herald in Waiting, College of Arms, Queen Victoria Street, London, EC4V 4BT.

But don't do that straight away. It costs. Not thousands, but it's very expensive. If you were to take that route you would have to find out everything you could for yourself first. Imagine if you queried them, paid, got your answer, then found that you'd got just one ancestor wrong in the link up to the ones you're asking them about, and the answer was not relevant to you after all. Disaster. So the College of Arms is the final destination once you are CERTAIN of what you are asking.

It's a long road. Does that help?

Offline angie29

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Re: A Royal Descent or not?
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday 02 February 16 22:34 GMT (UK) »
Heraldic Visitations have not been undertaken since the time of Charles II, and the type and level of proof required by the Heralds at the time varied with each Herald, Visitation and county, but all must be taken in historical context.
Whilst the original finished Visitations are at the College of Arms in London, the notes taken by the Heralds when visiting the counties became largely lost into private ownership.
No Visitation, whether the original finished article at the College of Arms, or the heavily edited versions now in print can be taken as primary source evidence when attempting to prove a family pedigree, whether for family history purposes or to claim the right to a Coat of Arms.
A Select Committee on Public Records in the United Kingdom 1800 specified eight categories of records:-
Visitation Books, Modern Pedigrees, Peers' Pedigrees, Baronets' Pedigrees, Funeral Certificates, Records of Royal Marriages, Coronations  and Funerals, the Earl Marshal's Books, Books of Arms of the Nobility of the Knights of the Garter and the Bath, records of Grants of Arms.
Four more were added in the 19th century; Lists of Knights, Pedigrees of the Knights of the Bath, Scotch and Irish Registers and Partition Books. (with thanks to Thomas Woodcock, Garter)

Church birth death and marriage records were not required to be kept until 1538, although many did not start until later, and many have been lost to fire, flood, vermin, mould, wars etc.

To lodge a pedigree now at the College of Arms, it has to be backed up with primary source evidence, and will be checked by two Heralds before it is accepted.
Similarly, to claim the right to use a Coat of Arms, you have to back up your claim with primary source evidence back to a man known to the College of Arms as having a legal right to those arms, or to the person to whom the arms were granted or confirmed in their records. This is again checked by two Heralds.
If you are not concerned with English pedigrees or arms, please refer to the relevant grant issuing authority, such as the Court of the Lord Lyon in Scotland.

If only the same level of evidence and recording had been required in previous centuries, the task of drawing up a reliable and truthful pedigree would be much easier.

Historical records must always be taken in historical context, with a knowledge of the laws and politics of the period in history that you are researching.



Offline Skoosh

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Re: A Royal Descent or not?
« Reply #22 on: Tuesday 02 February 16 22:37 GMT (UK) »
Oscar Wilde famously claimed that Burke's Peerage was the greatest work of fiction yet published in the English language.  ;D

Skoosh.

Offline angie29

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Re: A Royal Descent or not?
« Reply #23 on: Tuesday 02 February 16 22:47 GMT (UK) »
Actually, Oscar Wilde said that Burkes Family Records was the best example of fiction, in The Importance of Being Ernest.

Burkes Family Records was by Ashworth P Burke.1897, Burkes Peerage and Baronetage  was by Sir Bernard Burke, Ulster King of Arms., with Ashworth P Burke as assistant.

Offline Jayson

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Re: A Royal Descent or not?
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday 02 February 16 23:06 GMT (UK) »
David80

Thank for the above.  I will do at bit more homework before I commit myself to unnecessary expenditure.

You haven't made a mess of this thread.  I found your exchanges with Guy on this subject all very interesting ;)

Jay
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Offline David80

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Re: A Royal Descent or not?
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday 02 February 16 23:22 GMT (UK) »
Jayson, I'm very glad, and I have no doubt that Guy will be pleased that our exchange was fruitful in this way. A win for all.

Offline GUT

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Re: A Royal Descent or not?
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday 02 February 16 23:58 GMT (UK) »
Doesn't seem to be much doubt that I am descended from Royalty.

Doesn't do me much good though.

I know I am descended from Duncombes. Can trace with near 100% certainty to Cornwallis. Pretty simple from their via Bourkes Peerage. In fact Bourkes takes most of it out anyway once we get to Duncombe.
Gorton
Payne
Cornwallis
Duncombe
Rennex
Praeger