John Cave one christenting in two parishes?

[Hemmum]

I wonder if anyone can help shed any light on  two christening on the IGI which have the same date but different parishes? (probably a very simple answer for you clever lot).

John Cave s of John and Mary bap 22 Sep 1776 at Marston Moretaine, Bedford. I039224
John Cave s of John and Mary bap 22 Sep 1776 at Wootton by Bedford, Bedford. P005001

Batch numbers are given for both Wootton and  Wootton By Bedford. Are they the same place?

I wonder if either/both are for this (my) John Cave.
In which parish should I look for his parents?

On the 1841 census I have John Cave born between 1772-1776 living at Up End  Kempston, John’s wife Fanny was born about 1779 and I believe she may have been Frances Braybrooks who John married on 11 Oct 1798 at All Saints Kempston Beds. John Cave was not with Fanny/Francis on the 1851 census and I think he was buried;

John Cave otp aged 72 born 1777 buried 11 Mar 1849 at All Saints. Kempston. Beds.

Although I think John and Francis Cave may have had at least four children in Kempston (Pheoby 1806, Joseph 1818, Elizabeth 1823) I do not have a baptism them and would particularly love to find a baptism for their son (my) Charles Cave who says he was born in Kempston about 1810. As John and Fanny married in 1798 there may have been older children.

Any info/ideas would be appreciated>

[Ayashi]

I've had stuff like this before... I couldn't find the christening on FindMyPast and FreeREG but the same thing on Ancestry. No image unfortunately. Sometimes they are misrecorded but I do wonder if this might be a mix-up between a parish record and a bishop transcript record for example.

You say you don't have christenings for the children:
Name   Elizabeth Cave
Gender   Female
Christening Date   05 Jan 1823
Christening Place   ALL SAINTS,KEMPSTON,BEDFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name   John Cave
Mother's Name   Frances
(from FamilySearch)

Irritatingly that seems to be all I can find!

[StevenG]

Wootton and Marston are both on FreeReg (now at http://freereg2.freereg.org.uk/ ). John Cave can only be found at Wootton.

Comparing 1776 baptisms with those on FamilySearch it would seem that the entire batch I039224 is allocated to Marston, when the baptisms actually occurred at Wootton. Batches started with an "I" are user submitted transcripts and should be treated with great caution, whereas batches starting with a "P" have been extracted from the volumes published by Bedfordshire Archives.

[Bunnygirl]

Hi
All Saints Kempston Parish Register shows only baptism for Elizabeth Cave as follows
5 Jan 1823 Elizabeth Cave born 16 June 1809 parents John & Frances Cave
There are no other baptisms under name of Cave or Caves not born to these parents.
The burials states John Cave as 72yrs old  burial on 11 March 1849 so if this correct birth about 1777.
Bunnygirl

[johnP-bedford]

Kempston PR has a burial entry on 22 Jan 1804.... A child of John Cave, unbaptised

[Hemmum]

Thank you for your help. As suggested I have checked Free Reg and, as you say, the baptism of John Cave is only found at Wootton on FreeReg. What surprises me is that of 13 Cave christenings on batch P005001,  John Cave christened in 1776 is the only Cave/Caves on batch I039224. 

I have spent some time gleaning various resources and my notes are as follows;
Any comments or ‘missing bits’ would be appreciated.

Apart from John christened in 1776, his parents John and Mary Cave had perhaps two other children baptised in Wootton. Beds
Eliz CAVE d of John and Mary bap 8 Oct 1769 at St Mary Wootton Beds
Eliz Cave d of John and Mary BT entry buried 5 Sep 1772 at St Mary Wootton Beds.
Wm Cave s of Jn and Mary bap 7 Feb 1773 entry from Bishops transcripts at St Mary Wootton Beds.

I have not found a marriage for John and Mary about 1769 in Wootton .

I think John Cave Snr died
Jn Cave (Lab pauper) buried 31 May 1787 at St Mary Wootton Beds
John Cave’s widow Mary then remarried.

Mary Cave a widow married William Vaux a widower on 4 Nov 1788 at St Mary Wootton Beds. witness John Purser and Charles North. FreeReg  ? marriage not on IGI

Taking back the family one generation I wondered who John Cave Snr buried in 1787 at Wootton, the father of John Jnr bap 1776 Wootton/Marston, may have been?

Was John Cave Snr who was buried 1787 perhaps;
John Cave s of William and Elizabeth bap 30 Oct 1748 at Wootton by Bedford.

If John Cave Snr was baptised in 1748 in Wootton and married abt 1769 he would have been aged about 21.
If John Cave 1748-1787 Wootton was the son of William and Elizabeth when did his parents marry?

William and Elizabeth Cave had perhaps 7 children bapt between 1748-1763 in Wootton.
John Snr 1748 -1787 was their eldest child.

I have not found a marriage of William Cave and Elizabeth about 1748 in Wootton
but there is a suitable marriage in Biddenham.
William Cave married Eliz PICKERIN 22 Feb 1746 at Biddenham Bedford IGI M003761
Again with a conflicting entry on the IGI
William Cave married Elizabeth PICKERIN 22 Feb 1747 at Biddenham Bedford IGI I045869

Perhaps William Cave and Elizabeth married in Biddenham but lived and had their children christened in Wootton? There are no children for William and Elizabeth in Biddenham.

If William was from Biddenham perhaps his baptism was
William Cave bap 11 Jun 1721 s of John and Ann at Biddenham. Bedford
If William Cave bap in 1721 married Elizabeth Pickerin in 1746/47 he would have been aged  25/26.

William Cave 1721 parents John and Ann Cave had perhaps 4 children bapt in Biddenham, 1718-1728
Their first child Mary was baptised in 1718, William 1721, John 1724 and Ann in 1728.

I have not found a marriage for John and Ann Cave about 1718 in Biddenham or a burial for them.

These are my ‘Ramblings’ any idea??

[bedfordshire boy]

Checking indexes is a good start, but there's no substitute for checking microfilms of the parish registers to try to resolve your many "if"s and "perhaps".

I think it a reasonable assumption that William baptised 1721 in Biddenham is the same William who married in Biddenham in 1747. I think the conflict in the marriage dates is due purely to the change from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar in 1752. The M batch entry hasn't been adjusted, the I batch entry has. No conflict. Better to record the date as 22 Feb 1746/7.

Your difficulty starts when trying to prove conclusively that this Biddenham couple moved to Wootton, which after all, is less than 4 miles away across the river. Looking at the entry in the parish register to see if there's any additional detail eg "of Wootton" would be the place to start.

The marriage of Mary Cave in 1788 IS on the IGI - as a Contributed entry rather than an Indexed entry. A number of years ago the LDS tried to clean up the combined IGI as it was then, with member submissions and extracted items being in the same index, by deleting duplicated entries which were identical. In its wisdom it deleted the extracted, reliable entries, leaving the unreliable member submissions. Today with the IGI being split it appears as though some marriages are missing. So you have to check the PR if there's an identical member Contribution to see whether it's genuine or not (or in this case check the transcript on FreeReg). "I" batch numbers aren't considered to be as reliable as C and P and M batches, as it's difficult to trace the source. I'm not surprised that only one out of thirteen baptisms is included in the I batch as the parish register isn't the source, but is  probably taken from a secondary source.

[johnP-bedford]

Your difficulty starts when trying to prove conclusively that this Biddenham couple moved to Wootton, which after all, is less than 4 miles away across the river. Looking at the entry in the parish register to see if there's any additional detail eg "of Wootton" would be the place to start.

Not that easy David.... the 22 Feb 1746/47 marriage of William Cave to Elizabeth Pickerin at Biddenham says that they were 'both of Stagsden'.....

No Cave baptisms at Stagsden prior to 1807; Marriages we have....
10 Oct 1783 William Cave to Jane Handscome
17 Sep 1798 James Cave to Mary Pickering
Burials; William Cave labourer on 21 May 1784 & John Caves on 10 Feb 1801

There's a baptism at Stagsden on 3 Nov 1723 of Elizabeth daughter of John & Elizabeth Pickering; she'd be 23 if it's her who married in 1746/47 

[bedfordshire boy]

Just an idea in response to Hemmum's ramblings! In 1747 it's unusual to find any further information in a marriage entry, but you've struck lucky, even though it muddies the water! Demonstrates though how important it is though to check the full entry rather than relying on an index.