Author Topic: Sarah (Saria) PARSONS of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire  (Read 2393 times)

Offline majm

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Re: Sarah (Saria) PARSONS of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 17 November 15 02:55 GMT (UK) »
You probably already have the following info, but others finding this thread at some future opportunity may be interested and hold the elusive 'jigsaw' piece.
 
From the NSW Electoral Roll for EAST SYDNEY 1870
Ninian SCOULAR, household, Forbes St   
Noticing the spelling. 

Sands 1869 Sydney Alphabetical
Ninian SCOULLER, draper, 146 Dowling Street

Sands 1871 (closing date for entries was October 1870)

Ninian SCOULLER,  235 Forbes St 

City of Sydney Assessment Books
http://photosau.com.au/CosRates/scripts/home.asp
FITZROY Ward 1871
Mirian SCOULLER, 235 Forbes St,  Landlord/Owner KELLY,  a house,  (see live link)

FITZROY Ward 1877
Ninian SCOULLER,  237 Forbes St,  Landlord/Owner Charles READ, a house (see live link)

 :)  :) I am interested to learn which document gives you the additional information you have quoted about Thomas Nelson PARSONS with sisters in Newcastle NSW.
  :)  :)


Cheers,  JM
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Offline DianneBehringer

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Re: Sarah (Saria) PARSONS of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 17 November 15 07:21 GMT (UK) »
Hi again JM

James Henry Parsons and his wife Jane (nee Cook) came out to Australia on the Lloyds in Aug 1855.  James was Emma, Sarah and Thomas Nelson's uncle...the brother of their father Thomas John Parsons.  James and Jane brought out James' daughter Emma, son James (from a previous marriage), Jane's daughter Alice from previous marriage and their son Thomas John.  They travelled separately from Emma Elizabeth and I wonder if she actually knew them.  James and Jane had a daughter Susannah in 1857 born in Raymond Terrace.  The family moved to Patricks Plain which is an early name for Singleton.  It is a small world as Susannah Parsons married James Milligan in 1875 and I have been corresponding with a person who is descendant of the Milligan family...small world.

Bucksboy...how do I contact BuckFHS?  I will hopefully learn a lot more about my family through them but won't be half as much fun as going there myself.  I will be over there in 2017 so will still go to Aylesbury to sight the records myself.

Thanks again
Dianne

The comment on the Wanata manifest is "Sisters Sarah & Emma Parsons living at Newcastle New South Wales".  Emma was 9 years older than Sarah.  I checked to see if there was a Sarah Scouller (a sister to Ninian John Scouller Emma married) but there wasn't.

Offline majm

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Re: Sarah (Saria) PARSONS of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 17 November 15 07:31 GMT (UK) »
As per the usual set up on those voyages,  the families were accommodated together, and then the single females were together, and the single males were together.   Emma was placed with the single females because she at her age, she was charged adult fare.  So, I have sighted many passenger lists where Mum, Dad and their younger children are listed together, but their older son/s and/or daughter/s are in the single male or single female lists.   It is to do with fare structures.

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline majm

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Re: Sarah (Saria) PARSONS of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 17 November 15 07:42 GMT (UK) »
As I have transcribed many a passenger list, particularly for Assisted Passengers to N.S. Wales in the 1850s and 1860s, may I please mention again that when I see the passenger nominating family members who are already in NSW, I usually see them listed in chronological order, or in alphabetical order and with surnames that reflect their then current surname.   "Sarah and Emma Parsons in Newcastle" in 1864 is definitely a significant exception to that convention :
a) Sarah is listed ahead of Emma
b) Emma is listed as Emma Parsons, and not as Emma SCOULLER

From Emma's NSW marriage certificate to Ninian, can you please confirm the information Emma provided about herself, and her parents.   Can you also give the names of the witnesses, and the denomination, clergyman.    I will endeavour to follow these up in your quest for Sarah/Saria.   I had a look at the 1851 census.....  How sure are you that it reads Saria .... compare the "S" to other capital "S" on that same page .....    I have not looked at the 1861 census. 

I cannot find any "Saria" in my NSW offline resources in and around the Newcastle, Hunter, Patricks Plains districts/localities in that 1850s/1860s era.    I have been a NSW centric family history buff for decades, long before it became a popular hobby or there were any Internet commercial websites...  I am always happy to look up any of my resources.   

Cheers,  JM

The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline DianneBehringer

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Re: Sarah (Saria) PARSONS of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 17 November 15 10:09 GMT (UK) »
Hi JM

I am not sure why they are written incorrectly...maybe they just wrote down what Thomas Nelson Parsons told them.  It is interesting that the birth of Ninian John Scouller on 27 March 1858 (Emma and Ninian eldest child) in entered on page 2 of the back of the Family Bible but there is no mention of their marriage.  I have just received a transcript of their marriage certificate and there is not a lot on it.  It confirms that Ninian is from Scotland and Emma from England.  No parents for either are mentioned.  The certificate does confirm that Ninian reduced his age by 10 years and Emma increased hers by 5 years.  If she had put her real age of 19/20 she would have needed parental permission.  The witnesses are related to the Presbyterian Minister James Fullerton L L D.  At the bottom of the certificate is written "Birthplace, age and parent details were copied from Church Register No 370 on 12 Mar 1915".

I have just had another look at the 1851 Census and it definitely looks like an 'S' to me.  Also all the other children and ages are correct.  Except for the Family Bible and the 1851 Census, all other records are in the name of 'Sarah'.

JM I cannot find anything for Sarah/Saria in England or NSW.  There was a marriage of a Sarah Parsons to:

Name:    Sarah Parsons
Spouse Name:    Francis John Collins
Marriage Date:    1866
Marriage Place:    New South Wales
Registration Place:    Paterson, New South Wales
Registration Year:    1866
Registration Number:    2849

Would have made her 20 years old and Paterson is around the area but I have so many certificates for Sarah Parsons who have nothing to do with our family...I haven't bought this one...don't want to jinx myself.

As far as the Family Bible is concerned.  My cousin in Tasmania has it and we are not sure whether it was brought out by Thomas Nelson Parsons when he was 16 or whether he bought the Bible (and it is a large and heavy one) here and entered all the information into it.  Some of it is his writing but not all of it.  The first entry is 'Thos. John Parsons born May 16 1814'.  His wife Hannah Nelson is the next entry and she was "Born 1811, Married July 31, 1835'.

I have always had an interest in family history but did not start researching until late 2012.  My grandmother and I spend many years of weekends talking about family history but being stupid at no time did I write it down or record her recollections.  When I have doubted what she told me, my research has proven her correct so I now believe everything I remember.  I have my 2x great grandfather's photo album and my great grandmother's photo album and scrapbook.  I just can't identify all the photos as some them go back to 1870s and maybe 1860s.

Thanks ever so much for your help.
Regards
Dianne

Offline majm

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Re: Sarah (Saria) PARSONS of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 17 November 15 22:11 GMT (UK) »
Re Thomas’ details on one of the various manifests the Wanata arriving September 1864 …..

Looking at the image (41 of 44)  and the entire column “Relations in the Colony.  Giving Names & Addresses” I would suggest the scribe was endeavouring to follow the conventions.   So, for example the list of single men is in fairly strict alphabetical order, by surname then keeping siblings together, by given name….  So, looking down through the first column (Name) consider letting your eyes land on any entry with more than one person with that same surname

O’BRIEN, and without even moving across to any column to the right…..  You can see the scribe striving to follow conventions…..   

Martin, then Patrick and then John.    Just looking at that sequence your eyes should be saying “John is not connected to Martin and Patrick” ……  J is alphabetically before M.    So, John likely had NO other siblings on board.   

M then P  ….. well that’s in alpha order, and BOTH are listed ahead of J.   ummmm…..  the convention on these single female or single male lists is that family units are listed ahead of passengers without any other relatives onboard.    J was not listed first, so M and P must be related…..

Then look across to the several columns ….yes, plenty of information showing Martin’s native place and his parents names and status and Mum’s then current location, and then under the column “Relations in the Colony” …….  Sister, Mary JOHNSON, and her location in NSW.    Johnson ….. that’s obviously her married name. 

So, the scribe recording the manifest seems to be following the conventions.   

Thomas Nelson PARSONS entry shows that both his parents are living, and that he is Church of England, and he can read and write, and that he has “Sisters, Sarah and Emma PARSONS living at Newcastle New South Wales”. 
So, to me, either Thomas did not know his sister Emma was married and had been married for years and had children of that marriage, OR Emma who married Ninian was NOT Thomas’ sister.    With both his parents noted as alive at the time Thomas emigrated, and with Thomas being literate, surely he had the full details for locating his sisters, including their full names, not just their birth names?


I was hoping that the marriage certificate would give you the information that Emma provided when she being interviewed for her marriage…. This is first hand info that she provides to the clergy….    I see that NSW BDM reconciled their civil register to the Fullerton register in 1915.  It is unlikely that you will be able to find the rest of the first hand information that that Emma provided about her own parents when she was marrying, as at one time the NSW Registrar General noted that Rev Fullerton was running a ‘marriage shop’.       
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/fullerton-james-3582

I realise of course that you are searching for Sarah PARSONS, so I hope I have not diverted your attention away from that quest.   I should also add that re NSW, NOT ALL passenger lists are extant, and NOT ALL extant passenger lists have been transcribed. And of course, transcribed lists are only as good as the transcribing teams’ weakest link – ie the quality/condition of the document being transcribed and the knowledge of the transcribers. 

Thomas Nelson PARSONS certainly believed two of his sisters were in Newcastle NSW in 1864, and that they were Sarah and Emma PARSONS.     I cannot find a likely arrival for Sarah assuming that is her in the UK in 1861 census.   

Sorry I have not helped you find Sarah, but if you are sure that Thomas Nelson PARSONS is your ancestor, then I can only confirm with you that he believed two of his sisters were in Newcastle NSW in 1864.

ADD   ..... there's just a slight concern in my thoughts.....

Emma on arrival list was Wesleyan 
Emma on marriage was Presbyterian
Thomas was Church of England


Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline majm

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Re: Sarah (Saria) PARSONS of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 17 November 15 22:26 GMT (UK) »
JM I cannot find anything for Sarah/Saria in England or NSW.  There was a marriage of a Sarah Parsons to:
.....Sarah Parsons
.....Francis John Collins
.....1866
.....New South Wales
.....Paterson, New South Wales
.....1866
.....2849


For about $20Au (sometimes less) you can obtain an official transcription of that 1866 marriage registered in the Paterson district for a Sarah PARSONS and a Francis John COLLINS. 

If, instead of using the commercial website’s index only record, you use the free to search NSW BDM online index you can determine the date of that marriage (13 December 1866) and you can also check to see if the registration is indexed more than once (ie different spellings or surnames for the bride or groom).   

Here is the live link
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx

Here’s the live link to NSW BDM’s official transcribers
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#transcription

Here’s the live link to RChat’s Resources Board for NSW
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0

Please may I gently mention that it is important not to infringe copyright material.  It is best not to copy paste from commercial websites, as that may be infringing their terms and conditions of use and of course RChat’s conventions too  . 

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
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Offline majm

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Re: Sarah (Saria) PARSONS of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 17 November 15 23:02 GMT (UK) »

Would have made her 20 years old and Paterson is around the area but I have so many certificates for Sarah Parsons who have nothing to do with our family...I haven't bought this one...don't want to jinx myself.

Yes, well I have a wallpaper collection myself  :)   can you please type up the ref nos. for the NSW BDM certificates for Sarah please.       

May I also suggest you consider lodging some of the 'unwanted' certificates (including official transcriptions) with the http://ausbdm.ucoz.org/

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
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Offline DianneBehringer

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Re: Sarah (Saria) PARSONS of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 18 November 15 03:21 GMT (UK) »
Hi JM

A mystery as to why that comment appears on the manifest in the way it is written.  The record is definitely my 2 x great grandfather Thomas Nelson Parsons, brother to Sarah/Saria Parsons and Emma Elizabeth Parsons.  Their parents, Thomas John Parsons and Hannah Nelson, were married in St Marys, Aylesbury 1835 which was then an Anglican church.  There is no mentioin of religion on Thomas' birth certificate and I don't have Emma's birth certificate (if it is available as she was born in 1837).  I have double checked all Census and the ages and names of the children and parents tie in with my Parsons family.  Only anomoly is the 1841 Census where Emma is listed as 'Ann 3'.  They didn't have an Ann and 3 is about right for Emma born in 1837.

Emma married Ninian Scouller in 1857 under Presbyterian rights.  She remarried Obed West Jnr 25 January 1886 (story and half there) under Presbyterian rights.  On her death certificate she is classified as C of E and buried in the Church of England Cemetery at Waverly.  The informant on her death cert is her son-in-law Percy Alford.  He has cofirmed that her father was William but has put her name (Emma Elizabeth) for her mother instead of Hannah.  He states she was 18 when she married Ninian and 48 when she married Obed.  Her marriage certificate to Ninian states she was 25 probably for purposes of the 'marriage shop' you mentioned.

Thomas Nelson Parsons was married to Isabella Whittle in 1870 under C of E rights.  He then married again to Jessie McClaren Murray 1897 under Independent Baptist Church rights.  He is buried in Church of England Cemetery at Woronora.

I have ordered the marriage certificate for Sarah Parsons and Francis John Collins but don't have much confidence in it being her.  One of the problems with the indexes is that there is no age listed so very hard to tell which of multiple index records in one name actually is the one you are looking for.  I would have to look for the other certificates I have bought now but when I find them I will put them up on that site you mentioned.  One of them was for a Sarah Parsons death in 1908, I think, but she was 92 years old...way to old for my Sarah.  If the age at death had been on the index I would never have bought it.

I apologise for the cut and paste and certainly won't do it again...I am learning.

Thank you ever so much for all the information and help.
Regards
Dianne