service number

[sue76]

Hello,
my question is this, my maternal grt grandad joined the royal irish rifles under an assumed name (patrick doyle) in 1899 and fought in the 2nd boer war and elsewhere, he came clean in 1902, his service number was 6578 I have his certs of education from 1903 with his real name michael byrne and was a lance corporal, but when he left I don't know, I do know he went back in 1911 and fought in ww1 in europe, would he have kept this number or been given another, as i'm beginning to think his files have been lost in ww2,
thank you,
Susan

[sue76]

sorry I should have added that the certs say he was in the 2nd royal irish fusiliers, when that change happened i don't know that either

susan

[km1971]

The Royal Irish Fusiliers and Royal Irish Rifles were two separate regiments. Ancestry have three entries for him in the Royal Irish Fusiliers.

Ken

[Jebber]

The Royal Irish Fusiliers and Royal Irish Rifles were two separate regiments. Thomas Doherty had number 6578 in the Fusiliers, so can we assume your man was in the Rifles?

ken

Numbers were not standardised then, the numbers were issued by the regiment, so several men could have the same number if they were serving in different regiments.

Jebber

[km1971]

There are three entries for him on Ancestry for the Boer War medal:

=6578 P Doyle for Queens South Africa medal and CC, OFS and T clasps, dated July 1901
=6578 M Byrne (alias Doyle) for SA1901 and SA1902 clasps dated May 1903
=6478 M Byrne for Kings South Africa medal with SA1901 and SA1902 clasps, dated April 1903

So even the regiment got confused.

Regarding WW1 he served as Pte 6578 Michael Byrne - http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1262/30850_A000270-01278/2606287?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dMedalRolls%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dmichael%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dbyrne%26gsln_x%3d1%26_F8007A65%3d6578%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3de13%26pcat%3d39%26fh%3d0%26h%3d2606287%26recoff%3d9%2b10%2b55%2b56%26ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

This means they used the same service record and if you cannot find it, it must have been lost in the 1940 fire. The last two Boer War medal entries were signed off in India.

Can you find him in 1911?

The same number was even used a number of times in the same regiment - Regulars, Militia and (in GB, ie not Ireland) in each separate Volunteer/TF Battalion.

Ken

[km1971]

I do know he went back in 1911

If he enlisted in 1899 his normal discharge date would be 1911. He may have been transferred to the Army Reserve after seven years in uniform (or eight if he was overseas). He could have extended his time in the AR by a further four years - ie to 1915. He would then be recalled in 1914 at the start of WW1. Or he may have stayed in uniform until 1911, or beyond. Knowing what he was doing in 1911 will help.

His medal card for WW1 has him arriving in France at the same time as the 1st Battalion. It says 'Disc' for discharged, but without a date. A little known fact is that he could discharge himself in 1915 when his second period was up. And living in Ireland he would not have been conscripted in 1916. He did not receive a Silver War Badge, but living in Ireland there was less chance of him receiving a white feather from a little old lady.

Ken

[sue76]

thank you Ken

I am not computer savvy AT ALL! so I don't know how to get it on screen, so this is what says,
cert of discharge of no 6578 rank private michael byrne royal irish fusiliers, enlisted dublin, 6th may 1899, he is discharged in consequence of termination of his engagement in see "D" after serving 9 yrs 273 days with the colours, and 7 yrs 92 days in the army reserve, place luddan camp, date 5th may 1916, signed by lieutenent colonel nidwill, he was 36, we think he was gassed, but agin only family talk no proof,

Susan

[km1971]

....engagement in see "D" after serving 9 yrs 273 days with the colours...

Hi Susan

see D = sec D for Section D of the Army Reserve.

If you add 9 years 273 days and 7 years and 92 days it comes to 17 years exactly. One possibility is that he enlisted on his 17th birthday, ie underage and hence the alias. Plus 12 years for his first engagement and extended his AR service by a further four years. Does that fit in with his date of birth?

Another guess is that he was recalled to the colours on 5/6th August 1914 which is one year and 73 days to his discharge. Therefore he was transferred to the Army Reserve on 5th May 1907. Reservists received half-pay (365 days a year) in exchange for two weeks summer training. They do not normally record that they are Reservists on census or BMD certificates.

Ken

[sue76]

Hi Ken,

Your knowledge is phenomenal, thanks again for your time,
he was born in 1875 so not under age, he was married