Author Topic: Merchant Navy CR10  (Read 3850 times)

Offline wakokid

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Merchant Navy CR10
« on: Saturday 18 July 15 18:15 BST (UK) »
I have a copy of my grandfathers CR10 and wondered if it is possible to date when it was issued from his identity number 407045.

I would like to do this as it will help date the photograph and tell me his age at the time it was taken.

Alongside the photo there are two ships numbers listed with a date against each which I presume are the dates he joined these ships - 28th March 1919 and 15th August 1921.

Thank you for reading this especially if you can help.

Offline seaweed

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,363
  • I'll see you one day in Fiddlers Green.
    • View Profile
Re: Merchant Navy CR10
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 18 July 15 18:28 BST (UK) »
Can you give us your Grandads name so we can possibly look at the CR10?
From what you have said it would seem that it was issued between 1918 and 1921.
See also
http://www.irishmariners.ie/intro-cr10.php
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022

Offline wakokid

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Merchant Navy CR10
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 18 July 15 18:46 BST (UK) »
Seaweed

Yes, it's Charles Frederick Nutman born 1878.

Whilst writing can you also answer another query.  I have found him arriving in London from Bombay aboard a ship called the Macedonia on 22 June 1929.

He is listed as a passenger but in the section for what class he travelled they have typed D.B.S. - what does that mean?

Thanks in anticipation.

Offline HMac

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 844
  • www.sscityofcairo.co.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Merchant Navy CR10
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 18 July 15 19:42 BST (UK) »
I have a copy of my grandfathers CR10 and wondered if it is possible to date when it was issued from his identity number 407045.

Although the ID number or RS2 number was the primary numerical identifier for merchant seamen for the period 1918-1921 It is not easy to date it. Much easier to use his Discharge A. number which in this case is 884507 which would have been issued circa 1915.

DBS - Distressed British Seaman - One who is left without a berth, ill or without funds in a foreign port. Typically, but not always, during wartime, a DBS would be a seaman who was travelling after having his ship torpedoed or lost through other forms of enemy action.

Regards
Hugh
Merchant Navy Research
ss CITY OF CAIRO


Offline seaweed

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,363
  • I'll see you one day in Fiddlers Green.
    • View Profile
Re: Merchant Navy CR10
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 18 July 15 20:13 BST (UK) »
I think Hugh has given a definitive answer to your query. This can be somewhat confirmed by the fact your man was issued with WW1 medals
Downloadable from here, http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_fn=charles&_ln=nutman&_pl=&discoveryCustomSearch=true&_cr1=BT+351&_cr2=MT+9&_col=200&_dt=BW&_hb=tna

I note there is another  CR10 possibly for the same man. did your grandad have tattoos of a women on his left arm and was he rather tall 5 11 1/2 ?
The only way to find what vessels he served on in WW1 is to back track via crew agreements. Start with 142710 London registered ST JUST and work back via official numbers.
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022

Offline wakokid

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Merchant Navy CR10
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 19 July 15 12:45 BST (UK) »
Hugh

Many thanks for your help on the dating and also on the DBS explanation.

Paul

Offline wakokid

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Merchant Navy CR10
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 19 July 15 12:49 BST (UK) »
Seaweed

Many thanks for the information.

I have a copy of the medals card and also have his CR1 which does list him as 5' 11 1/2" tall and with the tattoos that you detail.

Is this CR1 the same as the CR10 that you mention?


Regards + Diolch!

Paul

Offline seaweed

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,363
  • I'll see you one day in Fiddlers Green.
    • View Profile
Re: Merchant Navy CR10
« Reply #7 on: Monday 20 July 15 19:17 BST (UK) »


Is this CR1 the same as the CR10 that you mention?



Sorry my typo, should have read CR1 card.  CR10 cards were only issued between 1918-1921. They were issued under the Defence of the realm act. Without boring you with the details, the government of the day were wary of the Irish Independence movement and the ID number and photograph where supposed to nullify the perceived threat of Irish seamen acting as some kind of fifth column The CR1 card, which more or less gave the same information but with the exclusion of a photograph. Most cards CR1 1913-1920 have been destroyed.
If we look at your grandfathers CR1 card you will note a different Discharge A number R7840, Merchant seamen were not the best with dealing with bureaucracy and I suspect he lost the original.
Yet another Discharge A number appears on the CR1 R805836 This is erroneous as it belongs to a seaman born in Birkenhead in 1948!
What we really need is a copy of your grandfathers CR2 card, which would tell us which ships he sailed on from 1921. Sadly this seems to have been lost or destroyed.
You say he was DBS on MACEDONIA  official number 116012 in June 1929. It would have been worthwhile to look at her logbook to see if there is any info there but this also seems to have been lost or destroyed unless it has been miss catalogued.

I note your grandfather was a Merchant Navy Fireman (Never, ever a stoker) by definition that makes him a "Hard Man".
These men worked in temperatures of 140 degrees plus, shovelling tons of coal, 4 hours on, 4 hours off, 24/7 for a pittance. Hard men indeed.

If you can get hold of a book called "No Longer Required " by Bill Linskey. ISBN 0 9537285 0 1. Read it. It describes the life as a Fireman on a British merchant steamship between the wars and during WW2. This book will make you laugh and cry at the same time. In my opinion, the best book ever written by a British Merchant seaman.
Bill, now passed on, was a founder member of Alcoholics Anonymous. His alcoholism directly attributed to his wartime experiences along with many other merchant seamen who suffered many untold traumas. The forgotten Fourth Service.
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022

Offline wakokid

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Merchant Navy CR10
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 21 July 15 17:46 BST (UK) »
Seaweed

Thank you again for your help and insight.

I have found the book on Amazon and will get a copy not just for my grandfather's history but also my father's who was in the service during WW2.

I will close this topic for now.

Regards

Paul