John Jabez Roberts

[Lucy2]

Thanks Lu.
John's funeral notice mentions that he was Ellen's father.
He was a miner who resided Simmonds Reef Victoria.
I don't believe Edward was Ellen Roberts father.
Orlando Honeyball was Henry Simpson then Orlando Hannibal Winnie. Names changed all the time then for different reasons.
Thank for the information.

Hi dhouston

I just wanted to address a few earlier comments you made (some of which have since been touched upon by "sparrett" (Sue) and "cando".)

The above were contained in your Reply # 8 :

Firstly - "John's funeral notice mentions that he was Ellen's father ".

The Funeral notice which I viewed - "Evening Post" (Wellington) dated 4 October 1897 - page 6 / column 1 - and has clearly been placed by the Funeral Director (it bears FD's address and telephone number) - actually says nothing of the sort.

What is does say is "The friends of John J. Roberts are respectfully invited to attend his Funeral which will leave the residence of his Son-in-law,  Mr. WINNIE..."

We of course know from other "findings" that O.H. WINNIE was the common-law husband of Ellen ROBERTS, and that John Jabez ROBERTS died at their residence.   Mr WINNIE as head of the household, was very likely the person charged with dealing with the undertaker.   

BUT given that there was also a death notice placed by the family of J.J. ROBERTS' (same newspaper, same date, same page) - which clearly spelled out that he was the "beloved uncle of Mrs O.H. WINNIE, Henry and Thomas ROBERTS", it seems much more likely that the undertaker had simply misunderstood Mr WINNIE's relationship to the deceased.

In my view, the undertaker made an error regarding relationship of deceased to Mr WINNIE.   

It's not a reason to jump to the conclusion that "I don't believe Edward was Ellen Robert's father".
More especially when you have said (on Australian thread) that you had the birth certificate for Ellen ROBERTS.

If you have any lingering doubts though, then it would be prudent to purchase the death "printout" for John Jabez ROBERTS.

  ~  Lu
 

[Lucy2]

I have copies of attestations.
One of the sons mentions that his mother was Emma Pitt, Orlando's first wife.

Hi dhouston

Your above comment was in response to my Reply # 6.

You didn't specify which "son's attestation" contained that information so it took me some time to locate it.

* Please though, have another look at the file.

It applies to the attestation form [at Image 8] WW1 NZ Army record for Hector Vincent WINNIE.

http://archway.archives.govt.nz

He has given is mother's name as "Ellen" (not Emma).[/u]

Provision was not always made on these forms for the inclusion of "Mother's maiden name", but yes, the surname "PITT" has been entered.  [And "PITT" was the maiden surname of his father Orlando's first wife.  So clearly Hector WINNIE has made an error there... for whatever reason. ]

However, he does give the birthplace of his mother Ellen, as "Ballarat, Australia".
  [The known birthplace of Ellen ROBERTS. ]

The WINNIE family history seems to be well documented and I'm sure like me, you've read somewhere that Emma PITT (1st wife of Orlando WINNIE), was New Zealand-born and possibly of Maori descent, having also the alternative surname of PORUTU (or somesuch ?)

When we research our family history, the results we get, aren't always "black and white".
The fact is, that errors in information do occur ... be they on "official" documents or "other" records.

   ~  Lu

   

[Lucy2]

It is my opinion that Edward was Johns known as Edward. How may nieces follow their uncle from Australia to New Zealand, live with them and pay for their uncles funeral?

Hi again dhouston

I don't recall reading here (or on the Australian threads), how, when or with whom, the niece (Ellen ROBERTS) arrived in New Zealand ?   
How is that you know the niece followed the uncle from Australia ?? 
[It is recorded that Ellen was in New Zealand in 1877 when she wed Daniel McPHERSON .  Can't see a researcher who has that marriage certificate (it would however contain only limited information - though knowing the marriage witnesses might prove helpful ?   As indeed would the Intention to Marry notice which should state who gave permission for the very young Ellen, to marry. ]

The short obituary for John Jabez ROBERTS - "Wairarapa Times" - 5 October 1897 - page 2 - Local and General, appears to be where you sourced the information that he was an invalid ?    It also states that he lived in Masterton (Wairarapa) for a time.   Seemingly he came to Wellington when he was incapacitated, and was taken care of by both his niece (Ellen) and nephew (Thomas ROBERTS).

* Please have a further look at that obituary.

It makes mention that John Jabez ROBERTS was a member of Court Loyal Enterprise, A.O.F.*, Masterton ... and reports that "the benefits of the order were fully extended in this case".
[*A.O.F. (Ancient Order of Foresters) "lodges" or "courts" were originallly set up as "burial societies".   Members of same made regular monetary contributions, and in turn the society would later pay their funeral costs (and sometimes "sickness" benefits.)  The Will of J.J. Roberts made no mention that his executor was responsible for paying funeral costs, so it would seem that the "Lodge" paid the associated expenses ... and not his niece or nephews.   A notice from an affiliated Wellington "Lodge" requesting members attendance at J.J. ROBERTS funeral, can be seen directly under his funeral notice. ]

   ~  Lu

[dhouston]

It is my opinion that Edward was Johns known as Edward. How may nieces follow their uncle from Australia to New Zealand, live with them and pay for their uncles funeral?

Hi again dhouston

I don't recall reading here (or on the Australian threads), how, when or with whom, the niece (Ellen ROBERTS) arrived in New Zealand ?   
How is that you know the niece followed the uncle from Australia ?? 
[It is recorded that Ellen was in New Zealand in 1877 when she wed Daniel McPHERSON .  Can't see a researcher who has that marriage certificate (it would however contain only limited information - though knowing the marriage witnesses might prove helpful ?   As indeed would the Intention to Marry notice which should state who gave permission for the very young Ellen, to marry. ]

The short obituary for John Jabez ROBERTS - "Wairarapa Times" - 5 October 1897 - page 2 - Local and General, appears to be where you sourced the information that he was an invalid ?    It also states that he lived in Masterton (Wairarapa) for a time.   Seemingly he came to Wellington when he was incapacitated, and was taken care of by both his niece (Ellen) and nephew (Thomas ROBERTS).

* Please have a further look at that obituary.

It makes mention that John Jabez ROBERTS was a member of Court Loyal Enterprise, A.O.F.*, Masterton ... and reports that "the benefits of the order were fully extended in this case".
[*A.O.F. (Ancient Order of Foresters) "lodges" or "courts" were originallly set up as "burial societies".   Members of same made regular monetary contributions, and in turn the society would later pay their funeral costs (and sometimes "sickness" benefits.)  The Will of J.J. Roberts made no mention that his executor was responsible for paying funeral costs, so it would seem that the "Lodge" paid the associated expenses ... and not his niece or nephews.   A notice from an affiliated Wellington "Lodge" requesting members attendance at J.J. ROBERTS funeral, can be seen directly under his funeral notice. ]

   ~  Lu

Thanks Lu and all concerned.
I had most of the information.
The Corfield surname was new to me and could be the surname of the Mary Caulfield that I was looking for.
I understand that the 25 days was the time between the twin's birth and date of registration.
I have records of Funeral Director Edward Morris Junior, Ellen's husband Orlando paid for the funeral of John Jabez Roberts.