Author Topic: Denyer Family Hove Sussex  (Read 14333 times)

Offline gwalkden

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Re: Denyer Family Hove Sussex
« Reply #54 on: Wednesday 10 June 15 13:56 BST (UK) »
I don't think the first one mentioned is my gr-grandparents.  I wish it was because then I would be able to put a family in there.  It is more likely that my gr-grandmother married Alfred Jupp Denyer as Alfred Jupp Denyer is what is named in the Barnardo paper.  Also my gr-grandmother was Mary Jane Smith.  I HOPE it was Mary Jane Smith or we have been living with a false name!  So it looks like the first Denyers, Alfred (no middle name) and Mary Jane Walder were the residents of Wish Cottage and not my gr-grandparents.  I'm glad I found this out or I would have been going to England in October and forcing myself onto a family that isn't mine! 

Offline LizzieL

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Re: Denyer Family Hove Sussex
« Reply #55 on: Wednesday 10 June 15 14:49 BST (UK) »
I agree, it looks as if the Denyers of Wish Cottage are not related to your family.

It looks as if finding any antecedents of Alfred Jupp Denyer might be difficult as we only know his mother was Fanny. I don't know whether his birth cert would give any more useful information. Quarter 2 1864   Chichester    district vol 2b   page 321
Also have not found Mary Jane Smith born Coldwaltham on a census prior to 1901 (by which time she was Mary Jane Denyer).
Freebmd has two births in Thakeham reg district (which covered Coldwaltham at the time) around the right year

Q2 1876  Mary Jane M Smith vol  2b   page 319   
Q3 1876   Mary Jane Smith      vol    2b   page 317   

Added.
Just realised Alfred Jupp Denyer is unlikely to be your ancestor's father anyway as the marriage was some time after Frederick's birth and Frederick was born in London.


Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Lanark: Scott (soldier went to Jersey CI)
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott

Offline gwalkden

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Re: Denyer Family Hove Sussex
« Reply #56 on: Wednesday 10 June 15 15:32 BST (UK) »
That's right. Alfred Jupp Denyer would have been my grandfather's step-father.  Barnardos lists the father as George Greenfield and it sounded like a one-night-stand. 

Well at least Nathan was recognized at the Tower of London. His name was read on September 22nd as part of the honour roll.  At that time I thought he was my great-uncle.

When my grandfather was born (St. Pancras Workhouse London Sept 7, 1894) it lists his mother as being 20 years old  so 1896 maybe isn't far wrong.

Offline Jebber

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Re: Denyer Family Hove Sussex
« Reply #57 on: Wednesday 10 June 15 18:52 BST (UK) »
Just to clarify what we know so far and  my own conclusions.

We know that Alfred Jupp DENYER was born in 1864 the illegitimate son of Fanny DENYER.

Mary Jane SMITH was born c1874/76 reputedly in Coldwaltham, parentage unknown.

Alfred  Jupp DENYER married Mary  Jane SMITH in 1897

In 1901  Alfred is apart from Mary Jane and working as a groom, he declares himself to be married
Also in 1901 Mary Jane is visiting an ANDREWS family with son Frederick, she also states she is married.

By 1911 Mary Jane is housekeeper to Charles GALE, still stating she is married, however,
Alfred is gardener to a Clement CLARK, but now says he is single. This would indicate the marriage was very short lived.

This looks like a possible death for Alfred
Deaths Dec 1915   
Denyer    Alfred J    52    Petworth    2b   450

The other Alfred DENYERs  that have been considered
1. Alfred born c1862 in Horsham, he married Jane BRIDGEWATER in 1891,  they only had two daughters Rose and Mary J. although Jane has acquired the name Mary Jane by 1911, this couple  can be discounted.

2. Alfred born Hangleton  c1872,  married Mary Jane WALDER in 1897, they had five children including Mary Victoria, Nathan and Edward, plus two other children born before 1911 who did not survive until then. This is the couple who lived in Wish Cottage so can also be discounted.

There is no sign of the supposed marriage of Mary Jane to a ? SEARLE in 1915, although she would have been free to do so because of the above mentoned death.

As there do not appear to have been any children from  Mary Jane's marriage to Alfred, there is little point in looking any further into the DENYER families. Concentration should be on the very difficult task of locating the birth of Mary Jane SMITH, that is the bloodline of Frederick.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.


Offline gwalkden

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Re: Denyer Family Hove Sussex
« Reply #58 on: Wednesday 10 June 15 21:06 BST (UK) »
That's it in a nutshell!  ;D   

Mary Jane has been our stumbling block for over 20 years and now it looks like she continues to elude us! 

Thank you so much for all your help, although it seems that my family shrunk somewhat!

I am very interested in following Mary Jane's branch and hopefully she will give up her secrets once and for all! 

I'm wondering if she was maybe shacked up with Mr Gale and the Barnardos misread her letter and thought it was Searle.  Maybe she married this Mr. Gale.  Who knows!

Offline LizzieL

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Re: Denyer Family Hove Sussex
« Reply #59 on: Thursday 11 June 15 07:31 BST (UK) »
The marriage certificate for Mary Jane Smith and Alfred Jupp Denyer should hopefully reveal the name of her father, unless she was illegitimate as well.
Mary Jane was suposedly born in Coldwaltham, so why was Frederick born in London? Possibly Mary Jane went to London for work, had a relationship with Frederick's father (possibly a married man?) and returned later (1901 census data) to Sussex. Are the people she is visiting in 1901 actually family? I have seen plenty of times a person named as a visitor or lodger when they are actually related to the head of household. Why did Mary Jane wait unti 1906 to give up Frederick? Had she fallen on harder times? Was this when she moved in with Mr Gale and he didn't want the boy with them?
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Lanark: Scott (soldier went to Jersey CI)
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott

Offline gwalkden

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Re: Denyer Family Hove Sussex
« Reply #60 on: Thursday 11 June 15 13:17 BST (UK) »
She was quite the lady (woman) for sure!   According to my Barnardo papers she had been in and out of workhouses and relatives homes.  The year before she sent my Grandfather away she had a baby that died.  So I'm back to thinking that she really was a woman of bad moral habits.  Barnardos also said that my Grandfather was blind in one eye due to neglect. 

When I thought that the other Denyers were my relatives, I figured Barnardos paper was a made up story but now I think there is a lot of truth in it.  She really was a single Mother who was probably prostituting herself to make money.  Barnardos also said they wandered around the country and often slept in barns.  How sad when my Grandfather was sent to the farm in Port Hope he slept in the barn there too.  Pretty much a lateral move for him.

Offline LizzieL

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Re: Denyer Family Hove Sussex
« Reply #61 on: Thursday 11 June 15 16:04 BST (UK) »
Maybe we should follow Mr. gale and see where he was etc.  Would be nice to find out who was living at that address c1915 when Frederick noted it on his papers.


A map of 1912 shows Parchment Street  had 13 houses - all on south side (as a block of 7 and a block of 6, separated by Washington road and what appear to be glasshouses. But it does look as if there is a larger house about half way along on the opposite side of the road with a large landscaped park or garden. The 1932 map shows little change. A 1963 map numbers the properties in Parchment street and the larger house (or its successor) is numbered 21. By this time the park / garden has been replaced by houses, so number 21 makes sense.
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/485697/105437/13/101329

So an address of 21 Parchment street in 1915 doesn't seem to exist.
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Lanark: Scott (soldier went to Jersey CI)
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott

Offline gwalkden

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Re: Denyer Family Hove Sussex
« Reply #62 on: Thursday 11 June 15 17:18 BST (UK) »
I don't really think my Grandfather knew exact addresses.  He was 12 when he was sent away.  I do remember my Grandmother telling me that when he went to England in WWI on his way to the front, he went to his Mother's home and his "sister" threw him the picture and told him to never come back.  That is the picture that hung in their den.