Sawyer family - Levi/Joseph - Burslem, early 1800s

[dmaxwell81]

Yes if you give me the dates I will see what I can do.
Co-incidentally I have both Sawyers and Winkles in my family tree.
Samuel Winkle (1887 - 1947) married my great grand aunt Minnie Bourne in 1909. His father was Frank Winkle (1861) and he was one of seven children.
and
Samuel Sawyer (1823-1895) married my 4th great grand aunt Elizabeth Bourne in 1843. His father was John Sawyer (1789-1861)
All lived in Burslem

Not sure how Samuel Sawyer links  up with the rest of my Sawyers (if he does at all).  Ralph Sawyer only had one sibling, Hugh, who doesn't seem to have survived though I've never found a burial record.  Ralph and Hugh's father was another Ralph Sawyer, the only child that I have been able to positively link to John Sawyer (buried Burslem 1806) and his wife Mary (____) (buried Burslem 1800).  There are several John Sawyer and Mary marriages but none very close to Burslem, so I am unsure which if any that John and Mary couple are.

My Joseph Winkle is probably the son of Joseph Winkle and Hannah Gibson, but I am still working on it.

Here are the Sawyer dates:

Henry Sawyer was born around 1823 (source: given age at burial, age in censuses)
Levi Sawyer was born around 1825 (source: census of 1841, US federal census of 1860)
Edwin Sawyer was born around 1826 or 1827 (source: census of 1841, US federal census of 1860)
Harriet Sawyer was born around early 1841 (called one month old in 1841 census, claims a Feb 1841 birth date in 1900 US federal census)

Winkle. These dates come from FamilySearch and are not on freereg.:

19 Apr 1812 Thomas at Hanley
28 Nov 1813 William at Hanley
8 Oct 1815 Elizabeth at Hanley

I have been able to sort out the Winkle children who were baptized at Burslem, because it helpfully gives the occupation of the father.  Also the abode of the parents would help, as my Joseph Winkle's abode is usually given as Cobridge, while the other couple is usually given as Scotia or Burslem.

[Zen rabbit]

Nothing much to report I'm afraid. :-(
I ran out of time to check the Winkles (Thomas, William, Elizabeth) I was checking Burslem parish instead of St John's Hanley for them so they could well still be in there.

I looked at records for:
St John's Burslem 1819 - 1828 and 1838 - 1841
St Peter's Stoke 1820 - 1825
St John's Hanley 1816 - 1827
Wolstanton 1815 - 1825

There were no Sawyer records at all in Stoke, Hanley and Wolstanton (or Winkles for the periods I looked in)
In St John's Burslem there were
30 April 1820 Hart. (Harriett?) D of Ann Winkle, Burslem, spinster
19 Sept 1820 Enoch son of Saml & Sarah Sawyer, Sneyd Green, f. collier
25 Oct 1820 Ellen d of Joseph & Mary Winkle, Cobridge, f. potter
9 June 1822 John son of John & Ellen Winkle, Cobridge, f. potter
30 June 1822 Harriet d of Ann Winckle, Burslem, Spinster
30 May 1824 George son of Hannah Sawyer, Sneyd Green, Spinster
6 Aug 1826 William son of Jho & Maria Winkle, Dale Hall, f. potter
9 March 1828 Aaron son of Thomas & Harriet Sawyer, Burslem, f. potter

and

19th April 1812 Ann d of Jesse & Elizabeth Winkle, High St Burslem.

[dmaxwell81]

Nothing much to report I'm afraid. :-(
I ran out of time to check the Winkles (Thomas, William, Elizabeth) I was checking Burslem parish instead of St John's Hanley for them so they could well still be in there.

I looked at records for:
St John's Burslem 1819 - 1828 and 1838 - 1841
St Peter's Stoke 1820 - 1825
St John's Hanley 1816 - 1827
Wolstanton 1815 - 1825

There were no Sawyer records at all in Stoke, Hanley and Wolstanton (or Winkles for the periods I looked in)
In St John's Burslem there were
30 April 1820 Hart. (Harriett?) D of Ann Winkle, Burslem, spinster
19 Sept 1820 Enoch son of Saml & Sarah Sawyer, Sneyd Green, f. collier
25 Oct 1820 Ellen d of Joseph & Mary Winkle, Cobridge, f. potter
9 June 1822 John son of John & Ellen Winkle, Cobridge, f. potter
30 June 1822 Harriet d of Ann Winckle, Burslem, Spinster
30 May 1824 George son of Hannah Sawyer, Sneyd Green, Spinster
6 Aug 1826 William son of Jho & Maria Winkle, Dale Hall, f. potter
9 March 1828 Aaron son of Thomas & Harriet Sawyer, Burslem, f. potter

and

19th April 1812 Ann d of Jesse & Elizabeth Winkle, High St Burslem.

Thank you for taking the time to look.

Yes, the ones that I was mainly wanting to see (for Winkle) were actually in that 1811-1814 period, sadly.  As I said, I know of them from familysearch's index only.  They could belong to either Joseph and Mary Winkle couple, but I was especially curious about the son William, since I could trace him a ways but I dont know whose son he is.

I had already completely checked Burslem (it's complete books are on Findmypast) which is how I knew about the occupational differences between those 2 couples, at least in their records.  I had hoped the same for Hanley, though I have no idea. 

That is sad to hear about Sawyer.  But my understanding is that Findmypast is actually missing a number of Staffordshire parishes, so perhaps they were done on the way to Liverpool, where we know Ralph and Mary Sawyer were living at least in the late 1820s.  But then there is also the final child Harriet's missing baptism too, so now I am not sure. 

Research for another day.  Findmypast has said that eventually their Staffordshire parishes, now using the FHL microfilms, will use color scans (always better), so perhaps they will be more complete.

[Zen rabbit]

I will check on the Winkles if I get a chance to call on the archives again (possibly this weekend if they are open)

some of the Liverpool records are also missing on line but a visit to Liverpool is a bit more difficult for me

[dmaxwell81]

I will check on the Winkles if I get a chance to call on the archives again (possibly this weekend if they are open)

some of the Liverpool records are also missing on line but a visit to Liverpool is a bit more difficult for me

Yes, Liverpool is only in snippets, I wouldn't have even asked there.

Speaking of missing records, the worst for my tree, by far, is Gloucester and the sheer drought of records available for it. It seems like very little is available, and I can do almost nothing for my line in there.

[Zen rabbit]

I can visit the archives tomorrow dinner time so I will have a look for those Winkles for you

[Zen rabbit]

Well..... The good news first.

Hanley St John's Church
19th April 1812 Thomas son of Joseph & Mary Winkle, Cobridge. born 23 March 1812

That is the best of the entries

William Winkle of your date 28 Nov 1813 could not be found. But the parish entries were of such poor quality that it was quite impossible to tell nor even possible to make a guess at the entry. Nothing even looked vaguely like Winkle or William

8 Oct 1815? Elizabeth dau of Joseph & Mary W(hard to read), Cobridge, f. Potter
another obscure entry with a hard to read almost blank surname, only the Christian names & location were visible (just)

A second entry for 9 Oct 1816? read Elizabeth William & Mary Wincle or Wardle (hard to say) Shelton, f. Grocer

The year details were missing from both fiches on the last two and it was only by Knowing that 1815 & 1816 were on the fiche and working back that I was able to make an estimate at the year.
In many places the parish records were virtually blank pages with only the faintest trace to indicate the presence of writing.

So sorry I couldn't be more useful

[dmaxwell81]

Well..... The good news first.

Hanley St John's Church
19th April 1812 Thomas son of Joseph & Mary Winkle, Cobridge. born 23 March 1812

That is the best of the entries

William Winkle of your date 28 Nov 1813 could not be found. But the parish entries were of such poor quality that it was quite impossible to tell nor even possible to make a guess at the entry. Nothing even looked vaguely like Winkle or William

8 Oct 1815? Elizabeth dau of Joseph & Mary W(hard to read), Cobridge, f. Potter
another obscure entry with a hard to read almost blank surname, only the Christian names & location were visible (just)

A second entry for 9 Oct 1816? read Elizabeth William & Mary Wincle or Wardle (hard to say) Shelton, f. Grocer

The year details were missing from both fiches on the last two and it was only by Knowing that 1815 & 1816 were on the fiche and working back that I was able to make an estimate at the year.
In many places the parish records were virtually blank pages with only the faintest trace to indicate the presence of writing.

So sorry I couldn't be more useful

That's alright, you did what you could.

That the Elizabeth done on 8 Nov 1815 is called daughter of Joseph and Mary of Cobridge Potter creates an interesting problem.  A little over a month before (25 Sep 1815) , Joseph and Mary Winkle of Cobridge Potter had a daughter Elizabeth baptized at Burslem.  I did, however, see some double baptisms for 2 of the Sawyer children (Hugh and John), the sons of Mary Winkle Sawyer, though all 4 of these baptisms were recorded at Non-Conformist churches.

William is listed just on FamilySearch.  There is a William Winkle born circa 1813 living with one of these widow Mary Winkles in the 1841 (I think) census.  This is the entry on FS:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NG3Y-1MK

[Zen rabbit]

FS entry for William "could" be right but I am afraid that with the fiche records at Hanley archives being so poor I could not confirm or deny it. It would be interesting if FS had access to better fiches or if they were just being "creative" with what was available?

As for Elizabeth. It is possible that it is a copy of the Burslem baptism (it comes under Christenings in the Hanley register). It is a shame that the Hanley registers are so illegible