Help - Looking for details of Great Great Grandfathers Service - 77th Foot

[BigIve]

Hello All,

I'm trying to track down details of my Great Great Grandfather as part of some research into the family tree.  Myself and a few of my cousins have been working together to try and confirm details of My Great Great Grandfather so we can try to work out who his parents are.  The details that we have been able to find so far are:

Name:  John William Jones (Birth Name)
Born:  24th Jan 1842/3 (can confirm year as yet but think it is 1843)
Location:  Dublin, Ireland

He ran away to join the army, but was caught by his father and taken home (apparently a little bit roughly).  The 2nd time he ran away to join the army he changed his name to Thomas Webb.  This seems to be the main name he used in the army.  However we have records of him also using William Jones Thomas Webb (marriage cert) and John William Jones Thomas Webb (after he got out of the army).

He joined the Army in 1861 and was assigned to the 77th foot.  Have not been able to find copies of his 'enlistment papers' (not sure the official term).  He was then apparently sent out to India on the  HMS Jumna (was referred to as a 'windbreaker' which I think means it was a sailing ship).  He spent 9 years in India and came back to England in 1870 on another HMS Jumna (a different one to the first) and his unit was apparently one of the first to go through the Suez Canel.

He apparently left the army around 1881 as a Colour Sergeant.

Service details we have are below.  They are text indexes only and my cousin got them by hiring a researcher at 'The Archives'.  I think she means the Kew Archives but not sure.

****************************
1861 Worldwide Army Index Transcription
First name: Thomas
Last name: Webb
Service number: 916
Rank: Private
Unit or Regiment: 77th Foot (East Middlesex) Depot Regiment stationed at Chatham
Year: 1861
National Archives reference: WO12 / 8297
Category: Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory: Regimental & service records
Collections from Great Britain

****************************

1871 Worldwide British Army Index - British Army Other Ranks & locations Transcription
First name(s): Thomas
Last name:     Webb
Service number:  916
Rank:   Corporal
Unit or Regiment:   77th (East Middlesex) Regiment of Foot (Duke of Cambridge's Own)
HQ location:   Portsmouth
Year:  1871
Country:   Great Britain
National Archives reference:  WO12/8308
Period: 01/04/1871-30/06/1871
Record set:  1871 Worldwide British Army Index - British Army Other Ranks & locations
Category:   Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory:  Regimental & service records Collections from Great Britain

****************************

From reading other posts on here, I'm assuming that the WO number would mean that there is a physical record?  Is that correct?  If it is how would I go about getting a copy?  As we have already tried one researcher who I think ripped my cousin off.

I would like (if possible) to find out what his unit did while in India (where they went etc) and more about what he did when he got back to England.  I know he moved around a bit (census records and birth records for his kids) but not much about his actual service.

There was one incident in 1878 at the Queen Victoria prizes for shooting, in Wimbledon where he apparently went to catch a 'Horse Bus' and it took off just as he was about to get on.  Someone leaned out and yelled at him to 'Come on, come on'.  The person who apparently yelled at his was the Prince of Wales (who later became King Edward VII).  He was apparently made to 'walk the carpet' by his officers for getting on the same bus as the Prince and never lived the incident down.  Although he always maintained that he was only following the Princes' last command.

I haven't been able to find any record of the shooting match or the incident (other than interviews with my great great grandfather).  We were lead to believe that the match was a regular comp and that he attended a few times.  Haven't been able to find results of how  they did though.

Sorry for the long post, but it has been a long hunt.  Our hope is that if we can confirm enough details (or even better find documents) we will be able to confirm his birth date and full names of his parents.

Thanks for taking the time to read this rather long tale.

[km1971]

WO12 is the series in the National Archives for the muster books and paylists for the Regular army (except Royal Artillery). WO16 covers later years. Findmypast's worldwide index use the muster book for Qtr 2 (April to June) for 1861 and 1871 respectively. I think the aim is to be as close to the census as possible.

If his record has not been kept there is nothing to stop you from using other musters to follow his service, starting with the 1871 until he leaves the army for example. However they will not tell you who his father was. You should get where he was born. But if he is using an alias then it may not be the truth.

Army records only start to record NoK in about the 1880s. Very very occasionally a soldier may have sent money home. But probably not in the case when the soldier is using an alias.

Musters will tell you exactly where he was - ie the town or fort - every month. His record would have just said 'India' or 'Home'. But it is time consuming and therefore expensive if you cannot do it yourself.

Windjammer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Jumna_(1848)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Jumna_(1866)

Ken

[km1971]

And here is his service record - http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo97%2f4123%2f048%2f001&parentid=gbm%2fwo97%2f4123%2f329988&highlights=%22%22

Ken

[millymcb]

Hi Biglve - welcome to rootschat

Is this the Shooting Comp you are referring to - organised by NRA at Wimbledon
www.nra.org.uk/common/asp/general/history1.asp?site=NRA

"The Association organised the first set of competitions on Wimbledon Common in July 1860, on land where Earl Spencer and the Duke of Cambridge, founders of the NRA, held manorial rights. Queen Victoria fired the first shot and gave a prize of £250 for the best individual marksman. This set the pattern for the Annual Meeting which has been held every year except during the two World Wars. "

Milly

[BigIve]

Hi Biglve - welcome to rootschat

Is this the Shooting Comp you are referring to - organised by NRA at Wimbledon
www.nra.org.uk/common/asp/general/history1.asp?site=NRA

Hi Millymcb,  Thanks for the welcome.  Yes that does sound very much like the comp that was mentioned.  The results on the page don't seem to go back that far but I will send them an e-mail to find out what is available.  Thanks very much for the link.

[BigIve]

WO12 is the series in the National Archives for the muster books and paylists for the Regular army (except Royal Artillery). WO16 covers later years. Findmypast's worldwide index use the muster book for Qtr 2 (April to June) for 1861 and 1871 respectively. I think the aim is to be as close to the census as possible.

If his record has not been kept there is nothing to stop you from using other musters to follow his service, starting with the 1871 until he leaves the army for example. However they will not tell you who his father was. You should get where he was born. But if he is using an alias then it may not be the truth.

Army records only start to record NoK in about the 1880s. Very very occasionally a soldier may have sent money home. But probably not in the case when the soldier is using an alias.

Musters will tell you exactly where he was - ie the town or fort - every month. His record would have just said 'India' or 'Home'. But it is time consuming and therefore expensive if you cannot do it yourself.

Windjammer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Jumna_(1848)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Jumna_(1866)

Ken

Hi km1971,

Thanks for the reply and the clarification.  The muster book you mention would they typically hold more information than what is listed in the 'index record' I posted initially?

Reason I ask I'm wondering if it is worth hiring a different researcher (would be very interested in recommendations on good researchers) so see if it is possible to get an actual copy of the muster book.

I will post copies of the news paper articles where the term Windjammer was used.  I must confess that I hadn't heard of it before either.  It was my Uncle who was in the Navy that said it would have been a sailing ship of some sort.

[BigIve]

Newspaper Articles mentioning windjammer.

[millymcb]

There is an article about the 1882 prize winner here from Illustrated London News. It has a description of the event. 
http://www.londonancestor.com/newspaper/1882/0805/lawrence.htm

If they reported in 1882 - perhaps they reported earlier years too.
 

And a little more background info here
http://www.wpcc.org.uk/historical3.html

It says "In 1878 entries for the Queen's Prize reached a record of 2,498." - so it was a big competition. 

Looks like it was set up for volunteer riflemen (ie not regular full time army) Not sure if that changed later or if it has any bearing on what your GGGrandfather was doing there. Was he with his regiment? competing? watching? or was he no longer regular soldier but a volunteer?

Milly




 

[BigIve]

I believe he was there competing with his unit. Not sure if the 77th sent one team or multiples.