Author Topic: were they illagitamate  (Read 7866 times)

Offline Rosinish

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Re: were they illagitamate
« Reply #18 on: Saturday 28 February 15 18:50 GMT (UK) »
Perhaps KGarrad and I have only looked at England and Wales birth certificates - where the term "illegitimate" is not used on birth certificates. Having no associations with Scotland, I (and possibly we) would have no knowledge of their entries.  ;D ;D

"Perhaps" some people should not mock others with :-\ ;D when they themselves are unsure ? :-\
We use the site for help when we have queries.............not to be mocked  :(
If it was put over that the term "illegitimate" is not normally on English/Irish/Welsh certs. then fine but the smileys actually made the original poster look stupid  >:(

If ANYONE has a query no matter what................they should not be laughed at as we all have different amounts of experience & knowledge which is gained through practice & none of us were born with that knowledge  ::)

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Online KGarrad

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Re: were they illagitamate
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 28 February 15 22:03 GMT (UK) »
I wasn't mocking anyone?! :(

Simply stating facts and my own point of view.

You can rant as much as you like, but (until your attachment) I had NEVER seen the word "illegitimate" on any Birth Certificate.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline lizdb

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Re: were they illagitamate
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 28 February 15 22:09 GMT (UK) »
I, too, had never seen 'illegitimate' on a birth cert. But I too am not familiar with Scottish certs, where generally more info is given.

I cant see what the problem is. The person enquired why the birth cert of someone presumed to be illegitimate did not specifically say the word illegitimate.
The answer was simply that, in our experience, birth certs of illegitimate babies do not specifically have that word entered on them. (Our experience being generally of English certs).

Hopefully that answered the query. It didn't mock, or laugh at the question. Just answered it! (to the best of experience, therefore open for others to input something different, as indeed was the case as it transpires that Scottish certs do enter the word illegitimate).
So we have all learnt something.
A very positive thread then, imho!  :)
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Offline aghadowey

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Re: were they illagitamate
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 28 February 15 22:15 GMT (UK) »
I've seen 'illegitimate' on Irish birth certificates (registration started in 1864).
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!


Offline Rosinish

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Re: were they illagitamate
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 28 February 15 22:36 GMT (UK) »
Rant  ???  ???
Nooooo......

Read from my statement what you will   ::)

Aghadowey,

I was merely stating that had the info. been referred to whether English/Irish/Welsh etc. would have been good as opposed to being dismissed............an example  ;D

 
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Online BumbleB

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Re: were they illagitamate
« Reply #23 on: Saturday 28 February 15 22:43 GMT (UK) »
My apologies to you, ammack - I did not mean to offend you.  I will refrain, in future, from including "smileys".

 
Transcriptions and NBI are merely finding aids.  They are NOT a substitute for original record entries.
Remember - "They'll be found when they want to be found" !!!
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Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: were they illagitamate
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 01 March 15 08:11 GMT (UK) »
Refers to England & Wales The word illegitimate would never be entered on a birth certificate, only the details required by the registration acts.

The instructions for Registration Act of 1874 state:
"The putative father of an illegitimate child cannot be required as father to give information respecting the birth. The name, surname and occupation of the putative father of an illegitimate child must not be entered except at the joint request of the father and mother; in which case both the father and mother must sign the entry as informants" The Act came into force on 1st January 1875. Between 1837 and 1874 if the mother informed a registrar of an illegitimate child's birth and also stated a father's name, the registrar could record him as the father, although he may not have actually been the father.

on the http://home.clara.net/dixons/Index.htm site it says "By about 1850 the situation had been clarified and the instructions read quite clearly "No putative father is to be allowed to sign an entry in the character of "Father" ". I can find no other source for this statement, or where the instructions came from.

Stan

Stan as you are probably aware the Registrar General sends out guidance to registrars and Superintendent Registrars as to "office policy". This guidance is supposed to clear up any misunderstanding of legislation.
A more modern example was in 1974 when due to guidance from the Registrar General Superintendent Registrars withdrew access by the public to registers held by Superintendent Registrars without there being any change in the law.


Annie you have a copy of the bottom of one page of a Scottish register book and the top section of a second page of a Scottish register book. Some of the entries seem to have been scored out with a red pen/pencil (red does not show up on many black and white scans).

The reason Scottish entries contain the word illegitimate is due to the complexities of the Scottish marriage system with the multiple forms of marriage and irregular marriage.
Until the Marriage (Scotland) Act 1939 a civil marriage in Scotland could be by mutual agreement, by a public promise followed by consummation, or by cohabitation and repute. It was not until 2006 that marriage by cohabitation and repute was finally abolished by the Family Law (Scotland) Act 2006.

Due to these forms of marriage there had to be a way of differentiating between  a birth following a church wedding and a "common-law" wedding.
Note the word illegitimate in such cases does not mean the child was a bastard (the official legal term at the time for a child born out of holy matrimony) under law.

Cheers
Guy
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Online larkspur

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Re: were they illagitamate
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 01 March 15 10:48 GMT (UK) »
Just to add my pennyworth, for what it is worth
My great grandmother gave birth to her first son in Moray, six months after her marriage to my gt grandfather (In England). On baby James birth in the Scottish Register book it  say's -see attachment- certainly if he had been born in England he would have GHA as his father, and we would be none the wiser.
I have several English birth certificates of children with no father named, none of them have Illegitimate on them.
AREA, Nottinghamshire. Lincolnshire. Staffordshire. Leicestershire, Morayshire.
Paternal Line--An(t)(c)liff(e).Faulkner. Mayfield. Cant. Davison. Caunt. Trigg. Rawding. Buttery. Rayworth. Pepper. Otter. Whitworth. Gray. Calder. Laing.Wink. Wright. Jackson. Taylor.
Maternal Line--Linsey. Spicer. Corns. Judson. Greensmith. Steel. Woodford. Ellis. Wyan. Callis. Warriner. Rawlin. Merrin. Vale. Summerfield. Cartwright.
Husbands-Beckett. Heald. Pilkington. Arnold. Hall. Willows. Dring. Newcomb. Hawley

Offline CarolA3

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Re: were they illagitamate
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 01 March 15 11:59 GMT (UK) »
Oh dear, a lot of this could have been avoided if we'd simply been told that these births were registered in County Durham - see this parallel thread:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=696048.
OXFORDSHIRE / BERKSHIRE
Bullock, Cooper, Boler/Bowler, Wright, Robinson, Lee, Prior, Trinder, Newman, Walklin, Louch