Can anyone help find our Mary ...

[odysseyov]

Mary Murphy married Ggrandpa Thomas Minton in NZ  (Brighton, West Coast) in 1867.   She was 18 (needed permission to marry) and ggpa 34.   We've tracked ggpa right back to his hometown of Clerkenwell, London, UK, have his death notices and even a newpaper photograph (he was a musician).   But Mary is elusive.   They had six children, 2 born NZ, 2 born Victoria, 2 born NSW, the last one born and died in 1882.   Gma's birth certificate suggests Mary was born in Victoria, but try as we might we've been unable to find any details of Mary's parents, birth, siblings, or even her death.   We suspect a sister, Letitia, who appeared as a witness to Mary's Marriage and later the same year married John Patrick Thomas in Charleston, NZ.   But Letitia could have been a cousin or even an aunt.   Margarita Newberry gave permission to Mary;  but we can find no link via the NZ boards that ties Mary and Margarita together.   Can some kind, diligent, RootsChatterer (?) please suggest how we might find our Mary?        

[sparrett]

Hi
Please would you link the NZ threads so those wishing to help have some further background.

Have you located the death of Letitia THOMAS?  Who were her parents?

Sue

[majm]

Yes, may I support Sue’s post.   I have not noticed your NZ threads, so perhaps I am duplicating  suggestions already offered on that Board. 

But on the offchance that I am not duplicating other RChatters,

I wonder if you have the birth certs for any of your Grandma’s siblings?  Particularly any of the birth registrations for those born in Victoria?   You see, Victoria birth certificates are recognised as being perhaps the most informative certificates in the world.   

The details on these are listed at the following RChat thread :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html

So you should expect to find on those Vic certs, confirming info or perhaps new info giving you
Mary’s names, including maiden name
Her occupation
Her then age,
Her birthplace (and from my own reading of the very few  births in my own tree that were Vic registered) I can see that where my 19th century relatives were born ‘overseas’ that even in those instances, the birth place of the parents included the name of the village, the county, and then the country.   
And of course all the other vital family history info you have mentioned in your Opening post.

So then with that info, perhaps we can try to find Mary's parents 


As you have not yet provided the names of Grandma’s siblings, it is not possible to use any resources to look up the Vic BDM reference nos to help you locate those Vic birth certs.

But for around $20 Au, and your plastic card, you can immediately download the Vic BDM images, once you have found the year and registration no.   There are quite a few RChatters who can assist in helping you with the reference no and year, once they know which names to look up.   

 https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseImage 

ADD
On the offchance, here’s several possible births registered in Victoria

Maria MINTON,
Father as Thomas MINTON,  Mother as Mary MURPHY
Birth at Hotham in 1872
Registration no. 10606

And

Arabella Georgina MINTON,
Same parents named on the index
Birth at Collingwood in 1874
Registration no. 7912

 


Cheers,  JM

[judb]

I am assuming these are the NSW births, all registered Sydney

NSW 1387/1876 Amelia Louisa MINTON, parents: Thomas, Mary
NSW 3475/1882 Maud A MINTON, parents: Thomas, Mary (Death reg NSW 2320/1882)

Where and when did Thomas die?   Was there any mention of Mary in his death notice?

The only death listed in NSW is for edited later Mary N MINTON in 1888, registered at Berrima (#7787) with parents John J and Margaret.  This is not your Mary as the birth for this child is listed with same parents in 1887, so only a baby at time of death.

Judith

[~MERLIN~]

There are already a few threads on RC about this family & they need to be linked here as chatters are repeating information already given   

I'll locate them & post the links given that the OP hasn't bothered.

Judith, Thomas died 1901 in NSW 

[odysseyov]

Thank you both Sue and Majm for your responses.   Happy to link NZ boards if you could tell me how?
Arabella Georgina is my Gma - I have her birth Cert and you are right Vic Certificates are very informative.   However, it only shows Mary's birthplace as Melbourne, Victoria and her age as 25.   We have the marriage Certificate (1867) which confirms Mary's age.   It was a civil marriage - Mary had been resident in Brighton 6 months, Thomas 1 month.   No reason to suspect a shotgun wedding because 1st child was born 11 months later.   I have the details of all Gma's siblings, but only ordered Gma's as I thought the others would show similar information.
We can't definitely link Letitia and Mary, but hypothesising that Letitia is a sister rather than a cousin, we've tracked down a Letitia Thomas, nee Murphy, who died 1924 at Carlton, father John Murphy, Mother Ann Doolan.   Also discovered that Letitia sued John for non-maintenance of her 6 children in 1886, in Victoria.   Two of Letitia's children were born in NZ, the others in Victoria.  It seems the eldest, Letitia, sued a John Gee for support for an illegitmate child in 1891 (via trove.nla.gov.au) and it's possible Letitia Jnr died in 1950 at Richmond.   There is a death for Ann Murphy nee Doolan in 1889, and for John Murphy in 1879, both in Victoria, which could be Letitia's parents, but lacking a birth Certificate for either Mary or Letitia which would link them together, we don't really know which, if any, death Certificate to apply for - and whether it would give us any further links.   The NZ post was headed "Who was Mary Murphy"  but I have no idea how to link it.
Regards,
odysseyov

[odysseyov]

"I'll track them all down & post the links given that the OP hasn't bothered!"
Sorry if I've transgressed - the previous posts with which I was involved were linked to Thomas Minton;   all of his family have been discovered and verified.   Mary's family has posed many more problems.
Please don't waste time on Thomas or the Minton family - as Merlin says, they have all been accounted for.   It is the Murphy/potential Doolan side that we are trying to trace

[~MERLIN~]

You should realise that to help find Mary we need all the information & that resides on other threads:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=582771.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=580905.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=702985.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=582582.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=581673.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=581672.0

[judb]

Thanks, Merlin, I see the death for Thomas now.

odysseyov, while you may know all about Thomas's family it is helpful to have some pieces of information.  For example, knowing that Thomas's death was registered in 1901 at Woollahra (suburb of Sydney) may give some clues as to where to look for the death of Mary.  I see marriages for the daughters, also registered in Sydney, so, again, it is likely that Mary was also in NSW after the 1882 birth.  So far I do not see mention of Mary in the In Memoriam  notices for Thomas - thus it seems a possibility that she had died or was otherwise estranged some time before.

Many small clues can help build a picture and lead to the information you are seeking.

Judith