Can anyone help find our Mary ...

[majm]

Another thought ...

The birth certificate for the youngest of Mary's children if NSW or VIC should list the names of that child's older siblings.     

With the gap between Maud and the older ones, we need to remember that the registration process was basically verbal questions and answers.   And a married woman was presumed (at law) to be registering a child by her lawful husband.   No one asked "are you still a couple", or "who is the baby's Dad".   The question could be asked in many different ways, but perhaps it was likely  to be "what is your husband's name",  rather than "who fathered this baby".   

So, while our 21st century eyes and ears are well trained in giving exact answers to very explicit questions on structured and detailed pre-prepared forms, the 19th century administrative processes were very different, less structured, and in many ways, less confrontational, so while some of the responses provided by informants seem to be less reliable, that in itself should not discredit any other piece of information either on that document or on other documents where that informant has given first hand info.

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

I do not have Thomas death Certificate.   Would it be likely to mention Mary?

Depending on the named informant's own knowledge, yes, it could well mention Mary, perhaps she was the informant, or perhaps it will show he was already a widower at the time of his death.

Depending on which colony's bdm registry, It could at least note if the informant knew if Thomas had ever married (where, when), and the known details about children of that marriage, both those then living and those already deceased.   If there had been an inquest or similar into his death, it may be that there's a greater emphasis on the causes, rather than the family history details about Thomas, but if there was not any need for an enquiry, then possibly a family member was the informant.   You won't know that depth of detail unless you obtain the information recorded on the official record.     

You may need to obtain several bdm certificates, not just newspaper cuttings to be able to more clearly see not just what the informants knew at the time, but also to be able to know how the informant was connected to the family.    So while dcs can be less reliable (ie not first hand info), there can be information there that helps join the dots in your research.

Cheers,  JM 

[majm]

Perhaps I am duplicating info already given on those several earlier threads.  If so, I apologise.

NSW Electoral Roll 1878, WEST SYDNEY.

Thomas MINTON, householder, 2 Windmill St (so this would be in The Rocks district, Gipps Ward)

Sands Directory 1877 
(directory compiled and closed for further entries to then commence publication as at 31 Oct 1876)

Thomas MINTON, 2 Washington lane (again, from my memory banks, I think this would also be  Gipps Ward).,  Sorry, I have just checked, likely it was in BRISBANE ward, it seems my grey cells need re-charging 

1876 birth registration for Amelia Louisa MINTON may be useful to help track Mary (28 April 1876 seems to be the deduced date of her birth as per NSW BDM online) .

Amelia does not seem to be one of the children admitted to Randwick’s facility for Destitute Children 30 May 1877.  She would have been 1 year old by then and perhaps still being nursed by Mary, her mum and perhaps kept with Mary, particularly in light of the SMH notice 5 June 1877 from Thomas .     
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13389951

City of Sydney Assessment books are transcribed and available online and these include the names of the occupier of premises and not just the property owners.   So, as Mary seems to have been still in Sydney (ie the BDM registration district "Sydney" which was only the CBD district of the City of Sydney) for Maud's 1882 birth ..... well perhaps Mary MINTON may be listed on those assessment books.     (So that's why I have suggested GIPPS WARD, one of the several wards covering Sydney CBD at that time)

http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/assessment-books

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Hopefully I am not going off on a tangent or duplicating other posts on those other threads. 

Maria (Minnie) WONNOCOTT, wife and mother,  perhaps was born Maria MINTON, to Thomas and Mary.

Maria’s sister, Bella SHEPHERD memorialised Maria in the SMH of 10 March 1917 on the one year anniversary.    So, if from my armchair searchings this morning, IF Maria was born Maria MINTON, then Bella was also their daughter too. 

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15718101

So, from the online index, Maria Wonnocott’s 1916 death shows her parents as Thomas and Mary.   The informant seems to know both Maria’s parents names, so Mary was not forgotten, and I suspect that Maria was the lass born in 1872 at Hotham, and that Bella was the lass born in 1874 at Collingwood. 

From either of their marriage certificates, perhaps it can be determined if Mary was still living at those times, (perhaps not noted as deceased), or even perhaps if Mary had changed her surname (so, perhaps not just her maiden name, but her then surname, eg Mary XXXXX, formerly MINTON, nee MURPHY) ….  Not all NSW BDM marriage registrations went to that level of detail, so perhaps these two mcs can be on a WISH LIST rather than on a MUST GET list.  And of course, full official transcrptions are the better option as they have the details without the more expensive real deal certificate.

Maria’s NSW BDM seems to be  registered in 1895,  #4477, twice indexed perhaps due to difficulty reading her husband’s surname (WONNOCOLL and WONNOCOTT)  and Bella’s is also twice indexed,  but in 1893.   #1075 (Arabella G and Isabella G).   These two marriages were in Sydney.   So, hopefully both have been fully reconciled by NSW BDM with their respective Church Records.    Bella would not have been 21 years, so likely would have needed a parent to provide consent, and their name and relationship should be on the mc transcription. 

Here’s the link to the many notices for Maria’s funeral, so many different family names, and friends too.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15670250  11 March 1916.   

Fingers crossed there’s someone who has already researched and has joined the dots and has Mary’s information available to share, but it seems to me that Mary was known to her daughters regardless of their admission by their Dad  in their childhood to Randwick Asylum for Destitute Children, and their subsequent discharge (along with two brothers) in March 1878 to their Dad,  Thomas Minton, of Kent Street, Sydney. 

Sands 1905
H Wonnocott, 19 Selwyn St, PADDINGTON.

NSW ER 1903 WENTWORTH, polling at Moore Park
Harry George WONNOCOTT, 19 Selwyn St,  a carter
Maria WONNOCOTT, 19 Selwyn St, domestic duties
NONE listed by the surname MINTON. 

That seems to have exhausted my resources, sorry.

oops. Sands 1900.  Henry WONNOCOTT, 64 Macquarie Street, South (JM notes this is almost into  what could be considered today as Surry Hills, it is to the south side of Liverpool Street Sydney, near to Commonwealth St ..... which in turn was formerly known as Little Macquarie Street South)

Cheers,  JM

[odysseyov]

Majm, You have gone to so much trouble in checking over details and some of them I can confirm from my own knowledge.   Yes, Maria Minnie and Arabella Georgina are siblings (the ones born in Victoria);   so was William Thomas, Louis Napoleon (the two NZ born siblings), Amelia Laura (mis-listed as Amelia Louisa) and the child which died, Maud Ann(the latter two born in NSW).   Maria and Amelia both married Wonnocotts.   Maria married Harry George and Amelia married Albert Charles.   I believe they were brothers, but haven't sent for marriage certificates or birth certificates so they could be cousins.   I knew Maria's offspring personally and also their offspring.   Amelia moved to NZ with her husband Albert Charles and Amelia's son's (Albert Charles') daughter and I are working on the family tree together.   
We have the marriage Certificates for both Mary and Letitia Murphy;   both married in 1867, Mary 's stated age 18 (in May) and Letitia's stated aged 21 (in November).   Mary's marriage was performed "at the residence of the parties" but Letitia's was performed in the local Catholic Church. 
We also have the document which shows the discharge of the four younger children (William, Louis, Maria and Arabella) to Thomas from the Randwick Institute for destitute children - it doesn't show who committed the children on May 30th 1877, only who rescued them on 22nd March, 1878   The younger child at the time, Amelia Laura, was not committed.  June 28, 29, and July 1, 1878, Thomas was performing in an Orchestra in Adelaide.    One wonders where the children were at this time in view, as Majm says, of Thomas' public notice that he would not be responsible for Mary's debts from 5 June, 1877, and again later in 1880.
As we already have the details of the siblings, Maud Ann's birth details seem less important than the city of Sydney assessment books, which may provide details of where Mary was living.   However, I think Mary's parents' details would only show up on her birth records, which, because she was born before civil registration in Victoria, would only be available on baptismal records.  Can anyone suggest how I could access those?
BTW,  I believe Thomas was living with Maria Minnie in Woollahra when he died.   He played for several years in the orchestra at the Alhambra Theatre and there is a photograph of him (along with the rest of the orchestra) which appeared in the Sunday Times, 1 July, 1928, in an article entitled "Pictures on my Wall" by Solar Plexus (I kid you not ).   Ggpa was of course dead by then.
Information for Gma's birth Certificate was supplied by Ggpa;   would it still be a good idea to obtain Maud's birth details, since there could have been separations and reconciliations in the time between Thomas' separate refusals to be responsible for Mary's debts?   
The link to the concurrent NZ board is (if I have copied it correctly) as below
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=702985.0
Thank you all for contributing -

[majm]

I am very NSW centric, so not much chop when it comes to VIC BDM searchings.  BUT I do know that the Early Church Records that are indexed at NSW BDM include baptisms from “Victoria” as it was part of NSW until hived off into its own colony in 1851 (And as an aside, there’s BDM’s for NZ, Fiji, South Sea Islands, etc at ready to be found NSW BDM from similar era).

Also, there’s possibly two or more separate records for a single baptism at NSW BDM.  This is simply because the then regulations caused a record in an original parish register to be transmitted to the Sydney based NSW Chaplains, and so both (and any intermediate register along the way) recorded the transmission, and NSW BDM has quite a number of each of separately recorded transmissions.

The familysearch.org has an ongoing project that can also help to find pre civil registrations, as they are uploading their transcriptions of original parish registers too.   Of course, many babies were not baptised, and so are not found in baptismal records.  And, on some occasions, the parish register is not available.   

The VIC BDM online index DOES cover MANY pre 1853 historic church records.  And can overlap with NSW BDM’s Early Church Records (online index has a “V” as part of the long reference no.) 

Re Vic BDM online,  I have checked as far as I can without spending any pennies, and for the two years 1848-1849 there are six matching records for “births” (ie baptismal records) for Mary MURPHY.
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=getHistIdxSearchCriteria

From a different resource,  and covering the years 1847 – 1850  I can see the following Vic BDM reference nos. for ‘births’ for Mary MURPHY  (NO second given name, I have not looked at those with second given name)
There are a number of more experienced RChatters who have a far better understanding of VIC BDM than me.
So, I have spotted the following

At
Melbourne, 1847 to Patrick and Ellen MURPHY  #2451
Melbourne 1847 to Patrick MURPHY and Ellen STAUTON #41646

Melbourne, 1849 to Peter and Mary MURPHY #4160

Collingwood 1849 to Laurence MURPHY and Ann APELBEE #42698
Collingwood 1849 to Lawrence and Ann MURPHY #3943

Melbourne 1849 to Walter MURPHY and Mary WHELAN #42860

Melbourne 1850 to James MURPHY and Johanna SHANASSEY #43405
Melbourne 1850 to James and Johanna MURPHY, #4878

Barwon, 1850, to Patrick MURPHY and Catherine RYAN #4843

Familysearch.org may have more details displaying than the indexed info I have typed up.  (I tend to use ‘less is more’ approach when searching at the following link)
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/location/1927080

So just as an example,  looking at the Barwon, 1850 to Patrick Murphy and Catherine Ryan from the Vic BDM index…. I feel it is likely that  would match up with baptism 24 May 1850 (not the date of birth, which is obviously earlier than that, could be months, years earlier) at St Mary of the Angels Catholic, Geelong, Vic.   
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5MC-BMR

The main concern with these Vic and NSW  baptismal records, is simply that there’s scant family history info on them to help confirm or eliminate them from any research.

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

The entry to Randwick for Wm Thomas MINTON 30 May 1877 aged 9 (he is listed ahead of his siblings, on a separate page) shows that he was

" 3067 ........... Received from Father, Thomas MINTON......."

then on the immediate next page

"3068 ....... Louis Napoleon ..... bro to Wm Thomas Minton on proceeding Folio "
 
and following on same page as Louis

there's Maria at folio 3069, and then at 3070, is Arabella, and it mentions that she is a sibling "to the three preceeding"

3071 is for a different Child, not connected to these four MINTON siblings.

30 May 1877, Thomas was delivering these four children to Randwick.   

I should also mention these four were noted as "Prot"  ( Protestants )

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Also, noticing that Louis N MINTON’s 1923 death registration at NSW BDM’s Canterbury district lists his parents as Thomas and Mary, so Mary was still not forgotten even in 1923.  The  family history info on these registrations was and still is “informant driven”, there’s no BDM cross checking undertaken to confirm the informant’s knowledge.    So, someone in 1923 was reliably aware of the given names of both his parents.  Sometimes, the passage of time between when a parent dies and when their adult children die, can be suggesting the loss of a reliable family member's memory of the given names of their parents.   

As there was a separation from a parent or both parents back in 1877 when Louis was a young boy, someone in 1923 still accurately knew the given names for both of his parents.  His Dad died in 1901.   So obtaining the 1901 dc official transcription should be on a TO DO list, rather than on a WISH list, to check if he was already noted as a widower, at least, and to also check if that informant had the correct info for Mary and Thomas' marriage, and accuracy of the children's names and ages.  And checking for nearby burials to Thomas' grave may be worth considering as well.  (NSW BDM's include cemetery info, and are far more than just a death registration detailing the person's name and age and cause of death).

NSW State Records Office online index for Deceased Estates shows  Louis Napoleon MINTON of Belmore (that’s in the Canterbury district, and a suburb of Sydney) as 1 Oct 1923, with probate 24 June 1924.  His occupation noted as a drafter.   (as an aside ‘drafter’ can be a legislative parliamentary function by civil servants drafting proposed laws, or the industrial positions, drafting at a Drawing Board for Architects, Civil or Structural or Mechanical Engineers, or even perhaps a Patents drafter handling drafting up inventions).

Cheers,  JM

[odysseyov]

  to all the folk who participated in this paperchase!   We still haven't found "our" Mary, although we have the birth and death certificates of her last child which show the child died from syphilis;  we aren't sure whether Tom was the culprit, or Mary.   Tom's earlier liaison with Margaret Calvery produced a child in 1858 which also died in the same year (Vic BDMs 2022 and 4085).   We supposed that Tom might have become infected (either before or through this liaison);  however, syphilis has 4 stages, viz Primary - highly infectious, lasts from 10 days to 3 mths then appears to clear;  Secondary, lasts from 3 mths up to 2 years and is still infectious;  Latent, remains infectious for a further 2 years, then is no longer infectious, and Tertiary which is the final stage and, without treatment can cause major damage to brain and heart leading to death.   On this basis we expect that if Tom were the carrier he would be in the Latent stage and thus non-infectious by the time he married Mary.   The five siblings born before the one who died were not infected (child mortality is almost guaranteed), so Mary is now the suspect, especially after the two episodes when Tom publicly refused to honour her debts, which occurred before the last child was born.   
With this in mind we now think that Mary probably left Tom to live with someone else.   She was catholic (marriage celebrated by a Catholic priest) - so there is no divorce (that we could find) but she may have taken another name.   Trying to trace her seems next to impossible.
Along the way, however, I acquired a set of inquest papers for a Mary Murphy who died in a Rydalmere Mental Asylum (Sydney);  Not our Mary, unfortunately - the lady was a teacher and left a small but useful sum to her nephew, Thomas Bullpit.   Papers are fascinating reading but of no use to us so would like to hand them over to anyone who may be researching said Mr. Bullpit;  or, for that matter, anyone who is interested in researching the way things were.   I will be happy to forward them by post if you message to me.
Happy 2016 everyone.