Uniform Identification

[John915]

Good evening,

No British General by the name of Sherlock listed for WW1 as far as I can see. Have found the following possibles.

Maj Gen Sir George Kenneth Scott-Moncrieff KCB KCMG
Lt Gen Sir Thomas D'Oyly Snow KCB KCMG
Lt Gen Sir Frederick William Stopford KCB KCMG KCVO (the last could have been after photo)
Gen Sir Cameron Deane Shute KCB KCMG
Gen Sir Horace Lockwood Smith-Dorien GCB KCMG
Gen Sir Reginald Byng Stephens KCB CMG ( Knights and Companions wear same badge when around neck)

John915

[Rahnee1]

Well, the person in Rahnee's photo appears to be a General Officer (Staff Tabs and General Staff hat badge) with Medals : 1914/15 Star, British War Medal, and Victory Medal with MID Oak Leaf, Volunteer Decoration, and a slightly obscured medal that looks as if it could be the Croix de Guerre. Around his neck is the insignia of a KCB and centrally beside the row of medals is a seven pointed "star", the insignia of the KCMG.
All of this fits with it being Sir John Monash, unless there is another WWI General of similar appearance and awards.
Perhaps family memories were confused ??

Maec

Based on this information and that fact that his birth isn't checking out either, I'm really starting to doubt the information we have on him.  Several family members have this photo along with the photo of his wife, and all believe it to be him.  But in all honesty, if he was such a decorated General, there would be some record of him, and there is not. 

It is definitely not a picture of Sir John Monash.  I've also found images of four of those listed above, and can confirm that they are not the same as the photo we have.

[John915]

Back again,

He would appear to have only 2 emblems on each shoulder but is the top one a star or a crown. By it's prominence I would say a star which would make him a Maj Gen but could have been promoted further after photo so we can't discount any others of higher rank.

The crown would be flatter than the star. A general would have 3 emblems on each shoulder. Field Marshal would only have 2 but the cap badge would have crossed batons.

Brigadier and below only have a single row of leaves on the peak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_officer_rank_insignia

John915

[majm]

Charles SHERLOCK is not listed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_recipients_of_the_L%C3%A9gion_d'Honneur#Australia 


May I please note that there is no officer insignia on the sleeve, (should there be ?) and may I also note that the officer’s cap seems to be a tad small. On parade it may well be so small as to blow off his head.  Surely the caps were individually fitted, and made so that the officers would not need to be distracted by their caps being caught in the wind when on parade.    So I am wondering if this is a 'staged' photo, likely of Charles Sherlock, but perhaps taken without the knowledge of the General whose regalia and uniform has been carefully cleaned/polished/pressed etc.     What occupation for Charles Sherlock's wife ..... perhaps if this is say Sir John's uniform, perhaps the Sherlock's were both crew on a ship bringing Sir John back to Australia.   


Cheers,  JM

[KGarrad]

It can't be the Legion d'Honneur?
The insignia for that award is a 5-pointed "Maltese Cross"?

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_Honour

[majm]

Correct, but Sir John MONASH was awarded the Legion of Honour  and the chap in the photo is NOT wearing the Legion of Honour. 

Légion d'honneur worn on the necktie indicates a Commandeur.
http://www.gwpda.org/medals/frenmedl/france.html

I would expect the Legion of Honour awarded to Sir John would be found in the London Gazette, as I am quite sure  the King's permission would be required before wearing 'foreign' decorations, but I have not followed that up as I am quite sure the photo is not of Sir John. 

Cheers,  JM

[Rahnee1]

So I am wondering if this is a 'staged' photo, likely of Charles Sherlock, but perhaps taken without the knowledge of the General whose regalia and uniform has been carefully cleaned/polished/pressed etc.     What occupation for Charles Sherlock's wife ..... perhaps if this is say Sir John's uniform, perhaps the Sherlock's were both crew on a ship bringing Sir John back to Australia.   


Cheers,  JM

Charles' wife, Mary Ellen Whorlton, was listed on their marriage certificate as a Stewardess on the SS Coolgardie.  I would assume this is where they met as Charles was also on this ship.  So, yes, this could be a possibility.

[John915]

Good evening,

Colonel and above never wore their rank on the sleeve at any time, it was always on the shoulder.
 
This is a Major general or Lieutenant General as there are only 2 parts to his rank insignia.

The hat seems perfectly good in size and fit to me, it looks much the same as the picture I posted of D'Oyly Snow. I doubt very much that someone would risk putting on the full uniform of a passenger on a ship. Especially a highly decorated officer, the last medal is indeed the Croix De Guerre with silver or gilt star on the ribbon.

The lack of a particular medal or award would not mean it is not a given officer. The photo may have been taken have been taken before the award was made.

This leaves 2 possibilities,
1, he is not British or Australian, but another nationality who wore the same style of uniform.
Or 2 the photo is later than WW1 and the KCB and KCMG are post war honours to an as yet unidentified officer. (Does the photo have a date on it anywhere)

John915

[T1]

Hello

I've been researching military uniforms for 25 years (sad, I know), and this photo looks totally bona fide to me.  The British War Medal and Victory Medal were (of course) awarded after the end of the War, so this is certainly a post-war picture.

There seem to be two possibilities; either he was a general (unlikely given that no one seems to remember this very notable fact), or he is not the man in the photo.  I have, for example, come across families who firmly believed a photo of Lord Kitchener was granddad so-and-so.  All this kind of mistake requires is a long enough gap.

Still, it's curious that the whole family believe this is him.   Given that general's uniforms haven't changed much in the past 100 years, I'm surprised the issue hasn't come up before if the picture is hanging up in lots of people's houses.