Author Topic: William DAVIS married to Martha ORME/HOLMES 1/2/1869, Collector, NSW  (Read 38594 times)

Offline majm

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Re: William DAVIS married to Martha ORME/HOLMES 1/2/1869, Collector, NSW
« Reply #54 on: Saturday 05 December 15 02:12 GMT (UK) »
Hi there,

Welcome knows a lot to RChat.   It is a great place for family history searchings.

Many of the rural marriages from 1856 to 1895 that NSW BDM has on their marriage register are basically only summaries of the full registration.  So NSW BDM's records often do not include the ages of the bride or groom, and/or their places of birth, and/or the names of their parents etc.   However, the information was usually recorded by the clergy on the parish register.   NSW BDM's own website acknowledges these blanks on their records.

Here's a thread I did up some time ago re how to overcome these elusive blanks.  http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html

I am sure that the expression 'native born' is not, of itself, indicating any ethnicity.  I am sure that during Macquarie's era, and right throughout the 19th century, and throughout the first few decades of the 20th century, 'native born' on official NSW records is simply stating that the person is born in the colony/ies (NSW, VDL/Tas, WA, SA, Vic, Qld) and it can be read as "B.C. ..... Born in the Colony.    Some of my ancestors arrived late 18th Century and those who were born here were noted as 'native born' even in the 1790s.   Apart from the word "Native" (as opposed to native born) another of the words used by officials during the penal era to 'label' Aboriginal persons was the ugly word 'savages'  http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/626265 Sydney Gazette 17 June 1804.   

"Native born" (regardless of ethnicity) simply meant they were automatically British Subjects, by virtue of their native place. 

Cheers,  JM
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Offline jemappelle

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Re: William DAVIS married to Martha ORME/HOLMES 1/2/1869, Collector, NSW
« Reply #55 on: Saturday 05 December 15 02:39 GMT (UK) »
Hi there,

Welcome knows a lot to RChat.   It is a great place for family history searchings.

Many of the rural marriages from 1856 to 1895 that NSW BDM has on their marriage register are basically only summaries of the full registration.  So NSW BDM's records often do not include the ages of the bride or groom, and/or their places of birth, and/or the names of their parents etc.   However, the information was usually recorded by the clergy on the parish register.   NSW BDM's own website acknowledges these blanks on their records.

Here's a thread I did up some time ago re how to overcome these elusive blanks.  http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html

<snip>

Cheers,  JM

A lovely lady from one of the Canberra family research groups went and viewed the Parish Register and unfortunately, the parents of both William, Martha and their witnesses (who were married on the same day) are blank.

Offline majm

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Re: William DAVIS married to Martha ORME/HOLMES 1/2/1869, Collector, NSW
« Reply #56 on: Saturday 05 December 15 03:01 GMT (UK) »
Hi there,

Do you know which register they viewed?  Do you know the clergyman's details and denomination?  C of E used two parish registers concurrently, one as a back up of the other.  One stored in fireproof safe/room and one stored often within the Manse....   Of course not all the registers are extant, but they were not meant to be lost or misplaced.     

I am confuddled,  if the witnesses were not named, how do you know they were married same day...

A lovely lady from one of the Canberra family research groups went and viewed the Parish Register and unfortunately, the parents of both William, Martha and their witnesses (who were married on the same day) are blank.

ADD

I have seen one NSW BDM marriage certificate where it took NSW BDM to inspect FIVE Church registers to obtain all the elusive details to complete the reconciliation....

Cheers,  JM
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Offline jemappelle

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Re: William DAVIS married to Martha ORME/HOLMES 1/2/1869, Collector, NSW
« Reply #57 on: Saturday 05 December 15 03:42 GMT (UK) »
Sorry poor wording on my part.  The parents of William, Martha and the parents of the witnesses were left blank.

All I know is she viewed the Parish Register for the Collector area.  So do I need to look elsewhere?


Offline majm

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Re: William DAVIS married to Martha ORME/HOLMES 1/2/1869, Collector, NSW
« Reply #58 on: Saturday 05 December 15 07:22 GMT (UK) »
Hi there,

From the marriage certificate, can you please confirm the denomination and the clergyman's name.   If C of E, the ecclesiastical law required (and still does) that two parish registers are filled out for each ceremony, and that these two registers are stored separately, and fireproofed. 

From 1 March 1856, NSW marriages conducted by clergy were in fact TWO ceremonies.  The civil one, and the religious one.  So if C of E, there's three registers at least.  Two church and one civil.  When the church ones were full, they were then forwarded to the Diocese for their safekeeping. 
The clergy sent summaries to NSW BDM based on the scant details recorded in the civil register, until the decades long dispute was resolved.

From NSW BDM website, http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/registry-records.aspx

In 1912 ......................
The Registry took this opportunity to request access to the 1856 to 1895 church marriages registers. Some Registry marriage records from these years recorded only the details pertaining to the parties to the marriage. Details of the parents had been left blank although they appeared in the Church registers. These registrations were amended and a notation made in the margin to record the circumstances of the amendment.

The task of reconciling the Early Church Records and amending the marriage registrations was never finalised. The Registry's records from these years are not complete and it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate or in the case of a birth, a baptism record where there is no corresponding civil registration.


I am happy to go through my own resources to see if I have noted where any of the Collector registers are currently/recently located.  Some may have more detailed information that others.  I have seen where up to FIVE registers were needed to be reconciled before all the details were found.

Cheers,  JM

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Offline jemappelle

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Re: William DAVIS married to Martha ORME/HOLMES 1/2/1869, Collector, NSW
« Reply #59 on: Saturday 05 December 15 10:29 GMT (UK) »
Thank you very much JM.

They were married under the rites of the Church of England by Robert Earl so there is hope yet we may find something more.  :)

I would really appreciate it if you could look through your records etc, when you have time, and let me know what you find.

I can message you a copy of the Marriage Certificate if you like.  :)

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Re: William DAVIS married to Martha ORME/HOLMES 1/2/1869, Collector, NSW
« Reply #60 on: Saturday 05 December 15 11:01 GMT (UK) »
Thank you very much JM.

They were married under the rites of the Church of England by Robert Earl so there is hope yet we may find something more.  :)

I would really appreciate it if you could look through your records etc, when you have time, and let me know what you find.

I can message you a copy of the Marriage Certificate if you like.  :)

 :)  :)   

Looks like the Reverend was Robert Thomas EARL,  http://anglicanhistory.org/aus/cci/index.pdf  I would expect the originals of the parish registers to be with the Goulburn Canberra Diocese

The National Library in Canberra has film/manuscript/indexes/ for much of the Diocese. 
http://tinyurl.com/joonv39

Fingers crossed there’s an RChatter handy to Canberra who can go to the NLA and check out their resources,  if not, perhaps  you may find some assistance here:  http://www.nla.gov.au/blogs/behind-the-scenes/2014/05/07/ask-a-librarian-now-virtually-everywhere

I don’t have Rev R T Earl’s registers noted in my own resources, sorry.  If the NLA resource does not list the witnesses (even if all the other blanks are still blank) then there’s something amiss, and if it were my family I would then consider approaching the Diocese offices, providing them with copy of the NSW BDM issued mc.  (If it is an official transcription rather than the real deal cert, have you checked that it was ordered as a FULL transcription …. Very very unusual not to include witnesses even when there are those elusive blanks), but it is possible to order PARTIAL transcription …..

Cheers,  JM
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Offline jemappelle

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Re: William DAVIS married to Martha ORME/HOLMES 1/2/1869, Collector, NSW
« Reply #61 on: Saturday 05 December 15 23:10 GMT (UK) »
The lady from the Canberra family history center went to the National Library and checked and said that there are no parents' details for the Davis's or parents' of the witnesses who were married on the same day (witnesses names are on the MC).  She also said that there were two other couples married in the church on the same day and they had full entries in the Register!

I also found a photocopy on ancestry.com.au of what looks to be the entry in the Parish Register with those details missing.

I'm not sure what to do now.  Should I contact the Goulburn Diocese? 

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Re: William DAVIS married to Martha ORME/HOLMES 1/2/1869, Collector, NSW
« Reply #62 on: Sunday 06 December 15 00:20 GMT (UK) »
Information on some place names not found on maps.   part 1

Many towns, places and parishes are mentioned on the various pages of this family history book, but firstly, a brief, basic outline should be given as to how such places originated.

Australia is divided into states or territories. Each state is then divided into large areas called counties and each county is then divided into parishes. The name of a parish was usually derived from local aboriginal words. Properties within a parish, were originally allocated as land grants by the government on the proviso that such properties became commercial farms and/or livestock breeding stations, etc. Those properties varied from small (maybe 30 acres) to very large (1000’s of acres). Prosperous landowners often purchased other surrounding properties (you will read later on, Molonglo and Carwoola were prime examples). To put a stop to such expansion, the government created a new land act during the 1880’s, which then restricted an individual’s land ownership to 300 acres.  Each main community area would eventually need a Post Office, Shops, Police Station, School, etc.  An area of land would then be resumed/purchased by the government, surveyed and subdivided residential land eventually sold, thus forming a village or town.

Some property names such as Carwoola, Willeroo, Primrose Valley, Muttbilly, Lumley, Currawong, Yarralaw, Inverary and Molonglo are usually not printed or mentioned on maps. They were usually parish names, or large multi-acre grazing properties/homesteads or grain food properties, commercially breeding cattle, sheep and/or horses or wheat/grain growing.  Some of the properties had servant’s huts, stone cottages and large cultivated areas, growing vegetables, fruits, etc.  Some properties eventually had a town built on them. Normally, the name of the town was the same as the parish name (for example – Bungonia, Goulburn, Nowra, Gundaroo, Menanglo, Cassawary and a slight exception  which was originally called Quinbean, now known as Queanbeyan).

A large property located between Sutton Forest and Marulan, was called Bumballa. It was also known as Bombarlow and Bumbollaway. Those variations were probably due to pronunciation and illiteracy. Bumballa was quite often mistaken for Bombala (located near Cooma NSW). The property name of Bumballa was the same as the parish name.

Inverary Park was originally a large farm property and homestead, mainly growing wheat and had a flourmill on the property and incorporated several workers and their families.  Lumley Park was another large homestead property located near Inverary Park. Those two properties were established in the 1820’s and located in the parish of Inverary. Workers and their families usually lived on such properties and those original workers would normally comprise mixed groups of bonded servants, assigned convicts, aboriginals or ex-convicts.