Marriage of Thomas Cropper and Catherine Formby any ideas welcome

[jkitchin]

Impy

Many thanks - I was also born in Birkdale but now live in Crossens.

I have not seen the census entry for 1851 for the Formby family, only the 1861. As I indicated below to Cat One, Alice is a widow by this time. Please could you let me have the full details?

You will see in my reply to Cat One that I am a bit perplexed about the Thomas Crawford marriage. I really thought Thomas and Catherine's marriage would turn up in the St John's Crossens registers. By the 1871 census they are married (presumably) and living next door to the Formby's in Snuttering Lane they then move onto Broome Road in Birkdale where they stay. St Peter's Birkdale parish records only start from 1876. I understand Snuttering Lane is what is now Cemetry Road so they were heading up to Birkdale by 1871. I can't think where else to look.

Do you have the marriages for Christ Church around 1869? I think that is the only place I have not looked?

On 1851 census I have 5 Cropper families:

John Cropper and family at 40 Crossens
Thomas (as in your previous message) at 47 Crossens
John Cropper and family at 48 Crossens
John Cropper and family at 54 Crossens
Thomas Cropper and family at 89 Crossens

This is what I picked up from Southport Library - have you seen any more?

Really appreciate your help

Many thanks

Jean

[Candolim_Imp]

OK, a few points to cover:

Bootle church records & census returns are available at Liverpool Record Office at central library. I do have the 1841 index for North Liverpool which includes ages and occupations.

I'm afraid I only have Christ Church baptisms 1821-1838, I'm not sure what else is readily available (I'm not aware of any printed transcripts for sale for other events/years).. but Southport Library may have the records on film or their own transcripts.

Here's Michael Formby's 1851 return at Snuttering Lane 498/27:

Michael Formby. head. 29. Bricklayer's Lab. Formby
Alice Formby. Wife. 28.  Formby
Elizabeth Formby. Dau. 6.  Birkdale
John Formby. son. 5.  Southport
Ann Formby. Sister. 20. Hse Serv. Formby

There is just one other Formby in the North Meols census. Manchester Rd 470/86:

Ann Formby. Head. 73. House Proprietor. Liverpool
Jane Naele. grand daughter. 16. Kirkdale
Emma Yates. Vis. 61. Sick Nurse. Bolton

Now for the other Croppers in the town:

544/21. Churchtown
John Cropper. Head. 47. Cotton Weaver (rtd). North Meols
Richard Cropper. son. 18. Handloom weaver (silk). N Meols
Ellen Cropper. Dau. 15. Handloom weaver (silk). N Meols

525/16. Rowe Lane
Richard Cropper. serv. 19. N Meols. Ag Lab for farmer, Henery Rimmer, aged 34)

575/40. Marshside
Richard Cropper. Head. 76. Ag Lab/Pauper. N Meols
Alice Cropper. Wife. 79. Pauper. N Meols

610/98. Crossens
John Waring. Head. 55. Farmer. Scarisbrick
Ellen Waring. Wife. 51.   Scarisbrick
James Waring. son. 26. N Meols
John Waring. son. 24. N Meols
Alice Waring. Dau. 22. N Meols
Thomas Waring. Son. 19. N Meols
John Waring. G/son. 6. At Home. N Meols
Henry Cropper. G/son. 5. At Home. N Meols
Betty Waring G/Dau. 2. N Meols

630/3. Gor Hall, Gorsey Lane
Thomas Cropper. Head. 48. Farmer. N Meols
Elizabeth Cropper. Wife. 52.  N Meols
Ann Cropper. Dau. 18. Employed at Home. N Meols
Ellen Cropper. Dau. 13. Dressmaker. N Meols
Richard Cropper. Son. 9. Scholar. N Meols
Isabel Cropper. Dau. 5.  N Meols
plus servants Thomas Brookfield 18 & Peter Prescot 16, both born N Meols

638/56. Charnleys Lane, Banks
Peter Cropper. Head. 80. Farmer. N Meols
Ann Cropper. Wife. 75.   N Meols
Margaret Cropper. Dau. 49. N Meols
Isabel Cropper. Dau. 32. N Meols
Peter Cropper. Son. 30. N Meols
Hamlet Cropper. son. 26. N Meols
Hugh Waring. Serv. 17. N Meols

Note Hugh Waring, same name as the grandparents of Henry Cropper... perhaps Hugh is a relative.

These, plus those you have already, are the total Croppers in North Meols in 51, there were none in Birkdale. Obviously, there are many Formbys in the Birkdale, Ainsdale, Formby & Altcar return, but I'd need a guide for who to look for if you need details of Michael's family.

Though the idea of the couple marrying in West Derby is odd, given their origin and residence in 1871 being North Meols... it does seem a remarkable coincidence if the father was named as Michael.... this wasn't a common name in the 19thC.

One thing that should be noted, though, is that if they did marry in West Derby, they would require a local residence to fulfill the legal requirements for the marriage. It was common, therefore, for couples to take a temporary residence or just give a friend's/relative's address as their own in order to give the impression of living locally.

If family disapproved of the match, or they felt that someone may make a formal, legal objection to the marriage, they may have chosen an area where no-one knew them. Was one of them under 18? if so, they may have gone to another area and lied about the age because the parents wouldn't give the necessary consent (as was, and still is, required for a marriage for someone aged 16-18).

Let me know how you get on with that lot

Impy

[Candolim_Imp]

I think it's definitely worth getting hold of the original church record of this marriage, though they don't usually contain anything different to the certificate (they are filled in at the same time, so are almost always duplicates of each other).

Perhaps Thomas chose to change his name for the same reason they chose to marry outside their area.

Do the occupations of Thomas and the fathers also match the census details? if so... I think the circumstantial evidence would be overhwelming in favour of this being your couple.

Impy

[jkitchin]

Hi Impy

Thanks very much for all the information. I will work through it over the weekend.

On the marriage cert of Thomas Crawford and Catherine Formby the ocupation of both fathers is stated as "Labourer" so it ties in with the census to some degree (Thomas's father Agricultural Labourer and Catherine's Bricklayers Labourer). However, the witnesses are interesting - John and Elizabeth Formby. As you are aware from the census information you sent me these are the names of Catherine's brother and sister! It's looking as if this is a match don't you think?

Once again, many thanks for your help and the information you have provided.

Jean

[Candolim_Imp]

It is looking very likely. I guess there's a possibility that the church register has his real name on it... it might be worth checking out.

Obviously, labourer was a common occupation... I think her father's name is the clincher, on top of the other name matches and the occupations.

I know her father was dead by 1861 (is Catherine's father listed as deceased on the marriage cert? sometimes they didn't state it, but it was normal practice to do so if he was dead)... I've checked the 61-01 censuses, and there's no Michael Formby old enough to qualify as head of a different family in Liverpool to suggest there were 2 Catherines born to 2 different Michaels.

There is also only 1 death for a Michael who would match... registered March quarter 1852, Ormskirk district. The only other Michael is one born 1874, Ormskirk dist who died in 1901... he was from Birkdale, son of John & Flora Formby (1881 match for them on the LDS site).

Mind you, the marriage record is just a bonus, as the 51 returns seem to provide proof of their families anyway.

Impy

[jkitchin]

Impy

Thanks. Catherine's father is not noted as deceased on the cert but as you say the other information is certainly looking strong enough to confirm that this is Catherine and Thomas Formby. I will try and track down the Church records just to tie it up.

Many thanks

Jean

[fclaussen]

Hi Impy:

I am interested in your input about Richard and Alice Cropper whose son, Thomas, was born in 1804.

Do you possibly know Alice's maiden name?

Also, is the occupation of Richard noted on this baptism record? 

The reason I am interested is that my gr-gr grandfather was Stephen Cropper.  He was the son of Richard Cropper, hatter, and Alice (maiden name unknown but could be Blackwall).  Stephen was born in Southwark, Surrey in late 1807.  He died in 1865 and is buried in the churchyard at St.  Marie on the Sands in Southport.

Any help you can give me would be great!


Fred Claussen
Saratoga, CA USA

[jkitchin]

Hi Fred

The wife of Richard and mother of Thomas born 1804  - her maiden name was  Alice Tasker. This family were born in North Meols and stayed there all their lives so I do not think there is a link with your Stephen. Richard's occupation is not stated on Thomas's baptism but in general the family were farmers and farm labourers.

I have about 300 Cropper's in my tree now and not one Stephen. Sorry I can't be of any more help but at least you can eliminate that avenue.

Jean

[fclaussen]

Hi Jean:

Thanks very much for the reply and the information you sent.

I will continue to pursue other avenues for my Croppers.  l have a strong hint that my branch of the Croppers might have originated in the Rochdale area but have not been able to prove it yet.  Stephen only lived in Southport for the last ~2 years of his life.  His second wife, Marth Finnell Cropper, also lived there (in Birkdale) until her death in 1876.

BTW:  I agree with you completely that Stephen was a very un-common name for a Cropper in the early-mid nineteenth centruy.  I have not yet found another occurrence.


Fred Claussen
Saratoga, CA
USA