Marriage of Thomas Cropper and Catherine Formby any ideas welcome

[jkitchin]

I am searching for this marriage. I alreday have 2 certificates that do not match. Their first child, Michael, was born Dec 1869. Catherine was born 1851 and Thomas abt 1843. As far as I know Thomas was born in Southport. Catherine was definately born in Southport and lived in Snuttering Lane. So far I have not been able to turn anything up in the Parish records. I have searched the GRO index from 1868 (when Catherine would have been 17) up to 1872 but to no avail. I have also drawn a blank on Ancestory and bmd. I know ther is a possibilty that they never married but I would be suprised. I need to establish the father of Thomas so that I can go back further. Any help appreciated.

Jean

[Valda]

Thomas moves his birthplace on each census
1901 Crossens
1891 Southport
1881 Liverpool
1871 Southport - living in N. Meols
1861 N. Meols - a servant in N Meols.
There are quite a few other Croppers born in N. Meols on the 1861 census.
You might want to ask for a look up on the 1851 census in N. Meols to see if there is a Thomas of the right age with his parents.
There is a Thomas Cropper birth registered Ormskirk (district covering N. Meols) in 1842.
There are problems with the civil registration - mistakes were made by clerks when they entered details into the index (there was no checking system). When the indexes wore out and typists were brought into to retype the names (again no checking system) and sometimes the records themselves not getting to the central registry from the local registry (usually in the early days of registration). Some family history societies are indexing local registry offices' certificates. There is a project under way for Lancashire
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
but as yet I don't think any Ormskirk district marriages have been entered.
If either of the two people had been married before then because divorce was outside the reach of anyone who couldn't afford it (most people) then remarriage wasn't possible if an early marriage failed. People were pragmatic and lived togther as married with their new partners or undertook bigamous marriages, or separated and didn't remarry, or stuck through the bad marriage. These were their choices.
If Catherine had married young and been widowed then of course she would have been free to marry Thomas but she would not have used the surname Formby.
Regards
Valda

[jkitchin]

Velda

Thank you for this. I have tried to match him on the 1851 census in he local library. There are a couple of possibilties but that is why I really wanted to find the marriage so that I can establish who is father was and then works backwards.

As you say it is complicated by the fact that his place of birth varies on all of the cenuses. My sister is adamant though that my Grandfather was a "Sangrounder" so that would mean he was born in Southport and not Liverpool. I will keep searching...........

Many thanks

Jean

[Candolim_Imp]

There is just one close match in 1851:

Water Lane, Crossens, North Meols:

Thomas Cropper. Head. 45. Ag Lab. N.Meols
Ann Cropper. Wife. 44.     N. Meols
Richard Cropper. son. 23. Handloom weaver (silk). N.Meols
Robert Cropper. son. 20. Ag Lab. N.Meols
Alice Jane Cropper. Dau. 11. Scholar. N.Meols
Thomas Cropper. Son. 8. Scholar. N.Meols
Betty Cropper. Dau. 6. Scholar. N.Meols

The other nearest Thomas' in age in the census are aged 2 and 18, so I think we can establish that yours was son of Thomas & Ann.

Crossens was in North Meols, an old district which also covered South Haws, Marshside, Churchtown, Little London and others. The parish also covered Birkdale (though this was a separate village). In the late 1700's, the town of Southport developed close to South Haws from the increasing fashion for "taking the waters" and the demand for lodgings near the beach. Southport was, and still is, part of the old North Meols district. Once established as a fashionable centre, the old residential areas of Crossens, Little London etc became districts of Southport. Birkdale remained politically separate until the late 1800's, when it finally merged with Southport and became a further outlying district of the larger town.

So Thomas' description of birthplaces is accurate as North Meols, Crossens or Southport... as Crossens is part of Southport, which is part of North Meols... Liverpool doesn't count, however, so he lied there!

I have the full 1851 census for birkdale, North Meols, Ainsdale, Formby & Altcar, and there are a few Croppers in North Meols at the time, though it's not an old local name... this means that their church records won't be as easy to track down, as the common/long standing local names are available as one-name extracts from the family hitory society.

I have found what appears to be Thomas & Ann's marriage in IGI:

Thomas Cropper = Ann Blundell 12th Sept 1826. This ties in well with the age of the eldest child in 1851.

There's a close match in baptisms: Thomas Cropper, bap 25th Nov 1804. parents Richard & Alice (this matches the firstborn boy & girl names amongst Thomas' children, which helps to confirm the match).

Any help?

Impy

[jkitchin]

Impy

Thanks very much for this. I am fairly sure you are right. These are the same assumptions as I had come to. I have a birth certificate for the Thomas, birth registered in Ormskirk 1842, which shows his parents as Thomas and Ann (maiden name Blundell) and I have gone forward on the assumption that this is the one. As you say all of the names tie in. I would really just like to find the marriage to be sure. There are quite a few records for Cropper in the North Meols parish records. I have a one name search of them and I have been to Lancashire records office and found quite a few in other church records. I have also found a lot on LDS in a pedigree resource file. I think that they migrated to St John's, Crossens when this church was built as they "thin out" round about 1830's in North Meols records. Unfortunately the parish records for St Johns are not at the records office but I have contacted the vicar and I will be going to view the records. He laready checked the burials (which he has computerised) and he found around 40+ Croppers.

I was born in Southport by the way and still live there.

Many thanks for your help.

Jean

[CatOne]

Theres a marriage for a Catherine Formby September 1868 West Derby Lancs Vol 8b Page 502. Found the other couple Ann Morgan and Edwin John Roberts on the 1871 census, so the other groom Thomas "Crawford" must have married Catherine. Couldn't find a Thomas and Catherine Crawford on the 1871 census, so could the "Crawford" be a mistransciption/mistake for "Cropper"?? Just a thought.....



amendment, there is one in Manchester, is West Derby near there?? (they had two children born pre 1868 though...)

[Candolim_Imp]

I didn't mean to suggest that they were only passing through... there are enough of them in 1851 to suggest they'd been there for a few generations... but I haven't come across any in the early records (late 1500's). The Rimmers are a nightmare to research because there were so many!! Other families have been there since at least 1380 (like my own), yet weren't as numerous as the Rimmers, Wrights, Rigbys etc, who arrived more recently.

I'm also a local gal... I grew up in Birkdale (though in Liverpool now) and my parents are still there. Almost all my paternal lineage is North Meols (I have my Hodge line back to 1580)... so I'm particularly keen on anything North Meols related.

Because there's a manageable number of them, it means there's only the one Thomas who comes close in age.

I have the Christ Church registers, which was the first church (apart from the ancient St Cuthberts), but I can't recall seeing any Croppers in there.... but with almost all of them living in Crossens, they would've stayed at St Cuthberts and moved to St John's when that was built.

Obviously the marriage record would be very useful, not only to prove the families, but also for the possible extended family it might open up with the witnesses.

I'm guessing Catherine was daughter of Michael & Alice Formby of Snuttering lane in 1851 (both born Formby...Catherine not with them yet in March) with his sister, Ann Formby & their children Elizabeth & John.

As I said, I have various resources (51 census, Christ Church baptisms 1821-38, one-name extracts for Hodge, Rimmer, Howard, Johnson, Jackson, Marshall), plus the ancestry.co.uk records. Let me know if I can help with anything.

Impy

[Candolim_Imp]

CatOne,

West Derby covers part of Liverpool, Bootle, Crosby etc plus Toxteth Park until it had its own registration district established.

As both the couple lived in North Meols, it's unlikely that they married in West Derby (though not impossible, as the new railway in the 1840's opened the area up more for travel)... but I'd expect them to have lived in the Liverpool area if they'd married there.

[jkitchin]

Cat One

Thanks for this. I have been down the Thomas Crawford route, thinking it might be an error, I bought the certificate but he was living in Bootle at the time of marriage and Catherine in Litherland. I had dismissed this but the vicar at St
John's Crossens has checked the marriage registers for me a few years either side of 1868 and found nothing. I think that means the only church I have not checked in Southport is Christ Church. What is interesting is that on the marriage certificate for Thomas Crawford and Catherine Formby, Catherine's father is Michael and Impy indicates that this is the same as the Formby family living in Snuttering Lane in 1851 as indicated by Impy. This is definately the same family as Catherine is there on 1861 census but alice is a widow by this time.  Also, Thomas's father is Thomas as well which fits. IT may be a massive co-incidence because I can't work out why either of them would be in the Bootle/ Litherland area but it may be worth checking the parish records. Any one know where they might be for Bootle Chapel in the Parish of Walton on the Hill in the County of Lancaster?

Jean