Which name for Rachel wife of Robert Rennie - Quebec Canada

[suzee]

Hi PB I have just relooked at several copies of the monument that I have and Rachel's age in months is either 5 or 3 - it looks more like 3 & I agree that portion of the photo is not that clear.
Regards
Suzee

[J.J.]

Suzee has sent me the images....The three is the worst number on there for lack of detail. This is a debossed background to make the letters look embossed...Fine and attractive for bigger wording but tougher to get small details.
I used the one taken with the camera sideways as the open end top of what I think is a 3 looks more visible. The 5s although all different styles, all appear to have a flat left stroke, and this is open enough to look like a backwards C when darkened.


Can anyone tell me why the shadow shows light coming from below rather than above?

The send image is a reverse image, which often shows better detail....

[polarbear]

Hello Suzee. Some thoughts.....

Given that the months look like they might be 3 and if the age of Rachel is correct, and my math, this would give her a birth date of about 01 Oct 1807 +/- a day or 6. So I am going to post a few thoughhts related to this interesting baptism....

At Laprairie, a Simon Denaut and Marguerite (Eng. Margaret) Bourassa had a daughter baptized with the name Michel Archange. She was b. 03 Oct 1807 and baptized the next day.

This is definitely not the name Rachel; the writing is clear. There is always the possibility that the Priest made an error, given that Michel(le) Archange seems to be a relatively common name in the family. Unfortunately, this is not going to help you other than in a circumstantial way.

Rachel may also have chosen to call herself by that name. No way to know.

It is also most unfortunate that a marriage has not surfaced for Robert and Rachel. Robert would in all probability have had to change to a Catholic in order marry in her church in those days. But if a marriage was found in a Protestant church, the likelihood that parents would be given would be low b/c they generally weren't included the way they were for the French ceremonies. But you never know....something may come to light down the road.

And you have a Simon and Margaret appearing as names for two of the children. Again, only circumstantial evidence. Too bad there were no family members as Godparents to the children. As Catholics they probably wouldn't have been allowed due to church rules.

Anyway, food for thought. This is a most interesting family!

PB

[J.J.]

More circumstantiel evidence to provide ( please read our taglines as posters must confirm  )

  I am not saying that is the correct baptism. Nothing conclusive has been found, and perhaps never will be.....but I found more compelling information this week to add to Polar Bear's find. I had not found it earlier as I was likely looking for Jeremie surnames. it was not until today when I worked on the grave stone that I looked again at where they were buried. Russeltown...I had not observed this as I was looking for other particulars when I first read the initial query.
I found  a Simon there in 1825 census...surname Denault. The name of the town was not written on the actual results info so I never noticed back when I found it. Spelled Rufsele Town using an "f" to show two Ss which was a good thing as the writing is not easy to read, and that clinched it.

Looking at maps to see St Martine closer than LaPrairie to Hemmingford Beauharnois where the Rennie family lived in the 1851 census....But just checked & Russeltown is quite a bit further down the road, so almost the same distance away.

1825 census  -  Denault , Simon - Russel Town, Ste. Martine, Huntingdon
a Pierre, single, the sole person in next household.
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1825/jpg/004569588_00029.jpg

 I don't get ten in total, all females and males should have been counted in the last two columns/sub columns but they appear to have missed the information for one young person.


Column3. Total number living in household: 10
Column5.  Total  under 6 years of age: 4
The next columns should have also been filled in to show all teens in household. This is not the only census filled in like this I do not think the enumerators knew what they were doing or they were not trained properly.....
A total male and female count is different from the information asked previously.

Column 8.  Men  (males)
  From 18 years of age and under 25 years & unmarried :1
  From 40 and under 60 years of age & married:1
Column 9.  women  (females)
  under 14 years of age: 3
  From 14 and under 45 years of age & unmarried:3
  From 45 years of age and over & married 1

[suzee]

Hi PB thank you so much for all your hard work! and powers of deduction - this family in Quebec has indeed been so hard to follow. I was at the proverbial brick wall when I posted this originally as Rachel went by so many names!!! I thought it would be easier when I found her name on her headstone but it was not to be!!

It is interesting that you have the Archange in your information. I wonder if the clergy of the day and the broad scottish accent changed Archange to Archance when documenting the births in the Presbyterian records. She was identified in some of her children's baptismal records in the presbyterian church as Archnace or Archance Berniece.
http://www.swquebec.ca/church_registers/ASP_net_files/surname_search.aspx
this is the website where I found quite a few of the entries for her as Archance however I am not sure where to access the original records and thus have not done so. I believe that this is the Rachel that I am researching as she is identified as the wife of Robert Rennie in Hemmingford and I cannot find another Robert in that area at that time.

I had never came across the name  Archance/Archange until researching Rachel.

 I found most of her children's birth except for Henry who should have been born around 1835. He came to Australia and became a Catholic in the early 1870s - he also married an Irish girl so that could have been an influence but this occurred a few years after he married her.
Henry named one of his children Rachel and another Margaret.

I too was baffled that I could not find a marriage for Robert and Rachel - I even looked for Robert on his own but without success. I have even looked through the Scottish records without success as there had been a suggestion that  he married in Scotland. I am beginning to wonder now if they were married elsewhere especially if she married outside of her religion. I cannot see Robert reverting to become a Catholic as his family were staunch Presbyterians and he even had relatives as ministers and elders in the church in Scotland.

Once again thank you very much for this information - as you said there may be light down the road later on.
Regards
Suzee

[polarbear]

Hi again.

It's really too bad that we can't say for sure the the baptism belongs to your Rachel. Wish we could have definitely found her for you. But certainly something to keep on the back burner in case some new info comes along to prove it is her.

I do think the Archance is probably Archange, a relatively common French name. It would likely not be a name a Presbyterian minister would be familiar with though and he perhaps wrote it as he heard it or thought he did.

About the Simoe... I think there might be some possiblity that it was a misheard and phonetically written Dimoe/Dinoe/Denoe for Denaut. The first letter is not all that clear, if I remember correctly.

Gosh knows where the Bernice came from but anything's possible. Could also be a somehow mistranscribed Deneau-type name.

I haven't looked again before typing this but I thought I saw somewhere on the website with the baptism transcriptions you posted (homepage, maybe?) that you could order copies of the records. I don't know if this would be original images but you might want to have a look. Original images would be such a bonus.

PB

[polarbear]

Here is a link (hopefully) with info about obtaining the records through that website....

http://www.swquebec.ca/church_registers/search2.html

Look under source documents.

PB

[suzee]

Hi PB and JJ thank you very much for your information
PB copies of the original images would be a bonus so will definitely check out the link.
JJ - there is the name Denault again - Rachel had her surname as Denaud in a record but again pronunciation and broad accents this could well be her surname. And Simon is a name used in the family - this name however does not occur anywhere in Robert's family back in Scotland.
I am going to print out the census record to really look at the information and to take in the significance. I know you have highlighted the areas for me but need to also visualise on the record! Just me! Need to go and peruse this new information.
Once again thank you so much because without your assistance and expertise in this area I would never have reached this stage on my own. It has been great to have conversations with you on this forum and all of a sudden have information appear in the forum. I really do appreciate it.
Regards
Suzee

[J.J.]

PolarBear you have done so much work behind the scenes! I hope enough information can be found to prove this is the correct gal. I had misread in a previous entry of Suzees that she had used the name Margaret & Mary as well, but it referred to her children... so see how the written word, misspells, semantics, phonetics, so much can be missconstrued. I have not found Bernice to be a name used widely in Quebec...PolarBear is correct, getting some actual images might help...I know someone who reads French well (P.B.)  and an image enhancer ( J.J.) 

Simon, as we had pointed out before, was the son of Etienne Jeremy Denault (denaud,Deniau / dit Detaily, Destailles) ...etc.& Marie Joseph(t)e Brosseau who were the parents of Francois whom we have found known to go by dit-Jeremy. There is more compelling information to add, and I was going to submit it in tomorrow night's post when I add some basic family info, but it does make for very good reason to dig further.

The son Simon was baptised 1774, La Prairie ...the next daughter died as a babe, the next baptism 1778 was for a sister Michelle Archange. So she may have had an aunt by that name...

IF that were she...There could have been many reasons she could have dropped baptismal names, if feeling rejected it may have represented the church in which she wasn't allowed to Marry......because she had another name she liked better, who knows if there was a third name not used at baptism. ( there would have also been a Confirmation name which could have been St. Rachel or the first name of her confirmation mother )...or it was just a name she liked and chose to call herself.
P.S. Marie as a first saint's baptismal name is often dropped as there are millions of Mary/marie.
She may have used her other baptismal name because it was a baptism. Have seen this before.

Until tomorrow...all the best