Adoptions

[sparrett]

"......Mudgee museum told mum today Frances married twice before Agnes was born......"
  WERTPERTY

I would have to be very cautious about this statement.
No-one to date has any document at all to support this.
Perhaps the staff-member at the Museum was assuming a marriage based on some names on an index.
If they are unable to back the statement with evidence, then you should not accept it as true.

Sue

[majm]

Exactly so Sue, exactly so.

Sometimes the words 'married woman' was used in the 1850s-1870s to simply indicate that a woman who had a child with her was a) the child's mum and b) a lawfully married woman (perhaps a widow).   Even the word "widow" in NSW up until around 1870s does NOT always mean that the woman's husband had died.   There's much evidence to suggest that it was not until the mid 1860s that the meaning behind the word 'widow'  contracted to mean that the woman had been lawfully married, and that her husband had died.   Until the commencement of NSW Divorce laws (1873), many people used the word 'widow' to indicate the woman and the child/children with her were NOT being financially supported by a man cohabitating with the woman.  Sometimes the woman would wear a ring to suggest she was a married woman. 

While we are mentioning the Mudgee Museum,  has Werty's contact there actually been down to St John's Church of England and asked about Agnes' marriage or about Frances' funeral .... both these should be recorded in the parish register, and perhaps there's some margin remarks, or perhaps even a typical C of E Family Sheet with info about Agnes, her sister Mary, or Frances .... or the SHERRY family.   This would be where I intended to start my offer of help, by simply asking one of my rellies to ask, but they are away on holidays at the mo.    Agnes marriage info should give up details that are 'blanks' on that NSW BDM civil registration.

Cheers,  JM

[sparrett]

A James and Frances McGovern had a number of children in the Goulburn area from 1853 to 1861.

This  Frances died on 21st October 1861 and it looks possible that James re-married in Goulburn soon after.

Reg 3009 yr 1861 MACGOVERN Frances
Father William
Died at Goulburn
Goulburn


Death Notice-

Goulburn Herald   Wednesday 23 October 1861 
... Died at her residence, Verner-street, Goulburn, on the 21st instant, FRANCES, wife of Mr. JAMES McGOVERN .......

Agnes MACGOVERN you have located was registered in the last 2 weeks of August 1861

Agnes MCGOVERN,
Mother Frances
Father -
AT Wellington
# 13967 Yr 1861

Sue

[majm]

http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/collection-search
From my armchair, ‘quick looking’  across some of the NSW SRO online indexes, which of course point to actual records available at NSW State Records :

Squire FIRTH is mentioned several times in the index of the Register of auriferous Leases at NSW SRO.  This is on the Gulgong goldfields, November 1874 and April 1875.

There’s also a firm PERRAM & FIRTH, Coach Builders and Saddlers at Coonamble in July 1903, this is  Edwin PERRAM and Henry Clarkson FIRTH.

Deceased Estate file for Patrick FIRTH of Pilliga, gives date of death 29 April, 1932.  In the remarks column it reads “or FRITH, Occupation : Labourer”  …. So need to remember FIRTH or FRITH when searching online.

Walter SHEERY deceased estate file may have mention of the girls or Frances.  Also, a George J SHERRY at Coonamble died 21 March 1888, as per that same Deceased estates index…  Is he Walter’s brother, and was he helping raise the girls?  Perhaps that file has some answers.

Perhaps Werty should be considering a visit to Kingswood and the State Archives there….

Cheers,  JM

[Wertyperty]

Hello everyone, i am almost done my write up of my knowledge today and although some of this stuff has been mentioned before everything will be in the one thread and I think is vital to understand what I have discovered in my research. I'll elaborate on last nights response to mudgee museums recent information and the exact wording they used so I don't create any technicality problems, you'll have to excuse me I'm new to this and realise how exact in my comments I need to be, I rang mum back and found out exactly what they told her and I've asked for her to ring them and provide us with where they got the info from. They said they are aware of 3 partners that Frances had prior to Agnes's firth's birth and we need to check the diasis because they believe that is where we will find her birth records. That would be better done after we have a better transcription of Frances death cert and hopefully have any other last names she may have obtained. Like I've explained to my family, we only have firth identified as their last name in 1864 when Frances died so if the girls and Frances obtained the name firth after Agnes was born then Their last name when Agnes was born could have possibly been any of Frances's other possible last names. They also told us that the witnesses on Frances's death certificate resided in cassilis, I looked up one of their marriage Certs, William Caplin and found he was married in gulgong/mudgee has church code NJ. So only a suspicion but I wonder if they looked after Mary Ann or both the girls after France's death, gulgong is where Mary Ann is listed for marriage. This couple appears to have resided in both areas. I'm thinking I should be finished my other stuff later tonight, thankyou everyone and I hope this helps.

[Wertyperty]

We've got Walters sherry's death cert, it is a copy of the original too. I can't understand some of the writing

[Wertyperty]

On that birth for McGovern and packer as last names. I done a variation of the name search and came up with this. It says groom Hugh McGovern and Bride Frances Parker, all I did was just change packer to Parker, married 1840, church LD 2 different registration numbers. Frances going off death cert would have been born 1829-30 depending on if Birthday was before or after her death and legal age for girls for marriage was 12 so it's possible of her to have not long turned 12 if married late 1840 and birthday was between death date and marriage date. Long shot but if related to the birth cert then this couple merged from Sydney to these areas.

[majm]

Perhaps the following is a sidetrack. perhaps not... but I will post it on the off-chance
Hi there,

There’s a photo apparently of Ernest FIRTH, son of Patrick and Catherine FIRTH that has been uploaded to a public tree at Ancestry.  He is in his WWI uniform.  I am confident that the person in that photo is of Aboriginal descent however the family tree owner  for Ernest does NOT show where the photo comes from, or how they can prove it is a photo of Pte Ernest James FIRTH, No 1696, 1st light horse regiment.  This could be important, because they show Ernest’s father’s father as born in Ireland.   

From the National Archives of Australia I can see the digitised service records for Pte Ernest FIRTH.  He is among the many Australians who fell in action.  The Commonwealth War Graves Commission website has details also.

National Archives of Australia ….  Search as a guest using the “RecordSearch” option.  There’s 48 pages.  Complexion : Dark;  Eyes : Dark;  Hair: Dark;    http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx  One of his other brothers was in the New Zealand Expeditionary Forces. 

Commonwealth Ware Graves website
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/644545/FIRTH,%20ERNEST%20JAMES

Australian War Memorial Website http://www.awm.gov.au/

Mapping our Anzacs  http://mappingouranzacs.naa.gov.au/

Ancestry’s submitted tree has Patrick James FIRTH as born 1842 at Molong NSW, son of James Patrick FIRTH born 1808 and Catherine BLACK (no further details for her).    James Patrick, apparently born County Ireland convicted Tipperary 16 March 1832,   Arriving Sydney 1832.    So I can confirm that NSWSRO has a James FIRTH arriving on the Eliza in 1832, and his Tick of Leave in 1837 was for the Bathurst District of NSW.      BUT as to how to connect this chap to Patrick James FIRTH, born at Molong in 1842 … well I am still pondering on that, and how to join up any of these dots…… I am particularly concerned as to how to confirm that that photo on Ancestry is actually of Ernest, the son of Patrick and Catherine FIRTH mentioned in earlier posts.  And then to try to find the family connection to Agnes or to Mary FIRTH.   

ADD  This Ancestry tree does have that Ernest as one of the many children of Patrick and Catherine FIRTH    it is just that they have not uploaded supporting documents (and I well understand why they don't do that, afterall, so many people will copy their documents and try to use them for their own family trees without doing the basic research for themselves).

Cheers,  JM ….

[majm]

Werty, 

I am guessing you are currently relying on index entries based on NSW BDM.  I am guessing you realise that many of the records of baptisms, marriages and of burials before civil registration commences in 1856 for NSW, are simply not part of the NSW BDM holdings.   

Cheers,  JM