Adoptions

[majm]

Werty,

May I ask if you have any NSW BDM certificates for any members of this family?  If so, which documents do you have ?   For example, do you have Agnes marriage cert (or official transcription) ?

Cheers,  JM

[Wertyperty]

Thats ok, you'll have to excuse my typing skills, i have definitely put him in the not useful pile, the one from ginniderra i ruled out, but we did find one in mudgee. i have done the same with him for the time being while i sort the facts out, all the available documents we have have come mainly from up to 12 years of other family members research compiled together. i jumped in head first before and john taylor from what i can figure out has come from him being well documented and marriages between european and  aboriginals esculated. im going to write you up an explanation of where im up to tonight and will post tomorrow night as it will take a while. Ive been relaying the info and it looks like its causing a bit of confusion. Am i able to provide you with all the written text details i have from death cert, marriage  cert, im yet to copy her mothers stuff in but what ive printed so far might help.

[majm]

http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/fhu/start.html

I have been refreshing my grey cells and re-reading some of the pages at aiatsis.  The following is part of the opening remarks under their heading "Family History"


"Have you decided to trace your family history but are unsure where to begin? Below are some suggested steps to help you get started with your family history research
As with all family history research, a good idea is to start with a blank family tree and fill in as many names as you can. A good way of filling in the blanks in your family tree is by searching the Birth, Death and Marriage indexes and certificates.
The names and information in your family tree can then be used to search indexes and other resources relating to Indigenous people and families. For more information on Indigenous family history resources see Resources."

And they continue on with many very good points and tips about family history research. 

Werty,

  If you have additional certs to the two that Bron has already posted, (Frances FIRTH's death cert, and Agnes FIRTH's marriage cert to William BAKER) then please to start with just a list of which ones you have.   

  Also, have you already checked with St Johns Church of England, at Mudgee re their parish register holdings from 1882 re those blanks on Agnes' marriage cert?

  Also, have you a transcription of Mary's marriage to John LONG ..... and if so, what info does it give on HER parentage (fingers crossed the blanks are NOT blank, but have the info for you re her father !)

Cheers, JM (signing off for today, as I can see I am fading away)

[bron63]

Im fading away aswell JM I, off to dream land have a nice sleep speak soon with the threads.

[Wertyperty]

Majm, we have photos of Agnes Firth, William James Baker and Lillian May Firth all together at some point in each photo. We have just gotten the datails we need from mudgee museum today and we are going to retrieve these transcripts, some have already been done. Death cert for Agnes has been done, going to check her mother Frances Firths one is good because we have an old one of that. marriage one as well for Agnes. got some of walters bdm registration numbers and Elizabeth amy nelthorpe. there are other photos that keep popping up from museaum and other family stuff as Agnes but i wonder if they are referanced to her and thats why they keep getting mixed up. We have photos of her with her family like i said so theres 2 that look like an irish lady and the other one is of lillian may Baker Agnes's Daughter, her daughter and an unknown person. Agnes was 30 years older than lillian so it makes that hard to believe that is agnes especially when compared to her family photos.

[Wertyperty]

Majm, Agnes Death certificate has Firth as Father and Boundary rider as occupation. In my searches i found that the greville p.o directory list boundary riders and names around cassilis Mudgee etc. i found an 1872 and 75 one so far, i got the hint off a post i read, he was a family transcription collector, he says its a good place to look as well if you get stuck but alot of them havnt been digitalised. Youll have a better picture once i explain what weve got and how some assuptions were made by some other family members which encouraged confusion, i was told the elders in queensland that were helping also thought johnny taylor but they found another 4 possible johns. The Aboriginal firths from pilliga i am just investigating because they have the last name, Agnes being in mudgee, Mary ann being in gulgong, and the heavy haulage trainline connecting the 3 towns, also the main road at the time.these two aboriginal anzac firths names are Francis Walter Bertie Firth and ernest his younger brother, their army enlistment records are available on tracking our anzacs. I found their parents marriage certificates for in coonamble and fathers name was Patrick firth and mother kate maccareny (McCarney) coonamble is a little bit south of pilliga, closer to mudgee. im trying to track that families movements. The Anzacs going off age in the army records make them born around the same years as Agnes's kids, so parents were most likely a similar age to Agnes as an assumption, too many cooincidences not to chase it up. with this in mind Patrick firths father or brothers could have been the father, only a research list of names, no solid links. Also found out mudgee and surrounding towns was also recognised as the country of wellington. Going off Frances's Death cert Agnes would have been born 1861 so im open minded to 1861 and 62. i found a birth registration that has 3 id's same registration number, same mum frances, same name agnes, same place wellington. last name 2 variatoins of mcgoverner and 1 packer. makes me wonder if this could be a farm birth record and  Mudgee museum told mum today Frances married twice before Agnes was born, they found all the same photos and documents we have already but they were able to provide mum with more history info to help the search. im going to see if these last names come up under marriages to a frances around the general area. Hopefully i can have this other write up for you ready tomorrow but i have 2 young ones so if its not it will be up by the next night. Thankyou very much for your help Majm 

[sparrett]

i found a birth registration that has 3 id's same registration number, same mum frances, same name agnes, same place wellington. last name 2 variatoins of mcgoverner and 1 packer. makes me wonder if this could be a farm birth record and  Mudgee museum told mum today Frances married twice before Agnes was born, they found all the same photos and documents we have already but they were able to provide mum with more history info to help the search. im going to see if these last names come up under marriages to a frances around the general area. Hopefully i can have this other write up for you ready tomorrow but i have 2 young ones so if its not it will be up by the next night. Thankyou very much for your help Majm 

These birth  registrations have already been mentioned on this thread more than once
(e.g. Reply #36 Neil Todd)

although it is very long and complex, I think it will be worthwhile if you read the entire thread to date
in order to see where we all are

Sue

[Neil Todd]

Well if nothing else, below shows that at least one fellow going by the Surname of FIRTH was in and around the Mudgee, Gulgong area about the right time.

EMILY E FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT RAYMOND TERRACE 12946/1863     
CHARLES E FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT NEWCASTLE  12443/1865   
SQUIRE EDGAR FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT GULGONG  15650/1876   
ELIZA M A FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT MUSWELLBROOK 13004/1868   
FREDERICK E FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT NEWCASTLE 14003/1871   
MAUD ELLEN FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT GULGONG  14490/1873   
EDWARD AUGUSTUS FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT HARTLEY  15060/1879   
WILLIAM E FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT NEWCASTLE 10647/1861 

This family of FIRTH may be worth contacting as an established family tree exists. I would find it extraordinary if there were no connection!!
http://www.geni.com/people/Squire-Firth/6000000003214919304
http://www.geni.com/people/Emily-Edgar/6000000003214919314 

Cheers

Neil

[majm]

Yes,  a good read back of this thread will likely show up several pieces of duplicated info, some of which is very likely to be factoidal, rather than actual validated fact. 

At the familysearch.org website there's quite a few transcriptions in their Historical Records section that may be relevant.  These are for the Roman Catholic baptisms of children of Patrick and Catherine FIRTH.  These children were baptised at St Francis Xavier, Narrabri or at St Joseph, Gunnedah, depending on the respective child.  They match up quite well with the civil registrations on the NSW BDM online index.     

I continue to wonder about that earlier remark about 'animal names' and perhaps there is an explanation.   You see, as I understand it, quite often back in the 19th Century the Roman Catholic records for baptisms (and for burials and for marriages) were recorded in their registers in the Latin language.   And, I am quite sure that very few people living in NSW in the 19th Century were educated sufficiently to be considered excellent Latin speakers and readers.    Of course, many people in the middle of the 20th Century used a 'fun' way of speaking and called it 'pig latin'.  ...... The Pig being of course an animal.     So, I can see that the FIRTH children's baptisms at the familysearch.org website are sometimes transcribed with their latinised names rather than with the English spelling of their given (Christian) names.

Here's the link to the website I am referring to :  https://familysearch.org/search

Here's an example of a transcription on that website for one of Patrick and Catherine's children
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTC5-ZXJ 
Ernest Gulielimus Jacobus FIRTH, son of Patricius FIRTH and Catherina Winfred McCARNEY
born  06 Oct 1886, baptised 30 October 1886, at St Joseph, at Gunnedah, NSW Australia.

And the civil registration for that birth is indexed as
28836/1886   
family surname FIRTH   
Child's given name/s ERNEST W J  (Gulielimus is likely Latin for William, and Jacobus is likely Latin for Jacob or James)   
Father's given name PATRICK   
Mother's given name CATHERINE W    
registered in the NARRABRI district

Fingers crossed I am not side tracking you too much.

Cheers,  JM