400 pounds left in will in 1881, but family is poor?

[amypatricia1]

Hello all,

I've recently received the death certificate of a Cornelius Brian, coal whipper/porter/heaver. (My as yet unconfirmed ggg-grandfather). His wife was in and out of workhouses and eventually died in the St George in the East Infirmary in 1907, and their son's family were very poor and frequented workhouses and their daughter lived in one of the 'filthy, vile' black coloured streets according to Charles Booth's survey. I need some help understanding this sequence of events.

I have his death certificate from 1881, he died on 17th March, aged 38. Tonight I found a probate record for him, (death dates match exactly), although I hadn't really been looking for one because I assumed they were too poor. But it seems he left a lot of money to his wife Ellen... 400 pounds. Wasn't 400 pounds a lot of money back then? And if so then why was his son living in poverty? Where does a coal whipper get that kind of money?

Thanks for reading, I hope some of you can shed some light on this situation for me.

Amy.

[stanmapstone]

It says the personal estate was under £400. It was an administration, i.e. the personal representative was free to administer and distribute the estate, so there was apparently no will.

Stan

[dawnsh]

Hi Amy

I've just looked at the calendar entry you mention.

Cornelius didn't leave a will as the entry is for a Letter of Administration.

This grant enabled Ellen to deal with his affairs after his death. The entry says that the estate was valued under £400, that's usually money, property and possessions. Maybe had had some savings, tools of his trade, a few bags of coal stashed somewhere. He might also have had some creditors who needed paying.

It's hard to know what the estate comprised off, but if £400 was the equivalent of a years wages, between 1881 and 1907 when his wife died, she had most probably spent it.

Dawn

[stanmapstone]

In 1880, £400 0s 0d would have the same spending worth of 2005's £19,324.00, http://apps.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency/results.asp#mid

Stan

[stanmapstone]

"personal estate" shall extend to leasehold estates and other chattels real and also to monies, shares of government and other funds, securities for money (not being real estates), debts, choses in action, rights, credits, goods, and all other property whatsoever which by law devolves upon the executor or administrator, Wills Act 1837

Stan

[amypatricia1]

Ah, thank you both very much for your responses, I understand now, the administration, of course. So "under" 400 could mean anything up to 400 then I suppose... And if I'm understanding correctly, some of that money could have been money that wasn't really his, ie he'd had a loan/debt and needed to pay it back? Possibly.

[Guy Etchells]

As it said the estate was worth under £400 so it could have been £2 or £50 or £150.
There is nothing to suggest it was close to £400

On the other hand the equity (if any) could have been in the form of shares which could have failed, or he could have loaned money  to someone else who defaulted.

Have you looked to see if there is an inventory of goods for his estate, that would give you a better understanding of the value of his estate.

Never use one of those value of sites that claim to relate the value over centuries they are all totally inaccurate as values of numerous items fluctuate as they go in and out of fashion.

Cheers
Guy

[amypatricia1]

As it said the estate was worth under £400 so it could have been £2 or £50 or £150.
There is nothing to suggest it was close to £400

On the other hand the equity (if any) could have been in the form of shares which could have failed, or he could have loaned money  to someone else who defaulted.

Have you looked to see if there is an inventory of goods for his estate, that would give you a better understanding of the value of his estate.

Never use one of those value of sites that claim to relate the value over centuries they are all totally inaccurate as values of numerous items fluctuate as they go in and out of fashion.

Cheers
Guy

How do I go about finding an inventory of goods for his estate? I wouldn't have the first idea to be honest.

[stanmapstone]

Never use one of those value of sites that claim to relate the value over centuries they are all totally inaccurate as values of numerous items fluctuate as they go in and out of fashion.
Cheers
Guy

The British Association for Local History produce a booklet called "How Much is that Worth?" by Lionel Mumby. In the introduction it says "No single precise, numerical answer is possible to the question: what is the modern value of a given sum of money at a particular time in the past? We do know the monetary price of many distinct items at specific times, but we cannot easily generalise from these prices."
The book has a selection of indexes from the 1200s until today (1996) with descriptions of how each one was compiled and suggestion as to their limitations.

This site gives an idea of how much things cost in the 19th century http://www.victorianlondon.org/finance/money.htm


Stan