Marriage look up Merchant to Brewin.

[Sal1525]

Bit intrigued by this one who is a Hawker

British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
Name:    Robert Welch
Gender:    Male
Birth Date:    abt 1885
Birth Place:    Greenwich, Kent, England
Age:    18
Document Year:    1903
Regimental Number:    7256
Regiment Name:    Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment
Form Title:    Short Service Attestation
Number of Images:    39

Family
Robert Welch    Father
Jane Welch    Mother
William Welch    Brother
James Welch    Brother who is serving
   
Army reserve 1906, back in and termination 1916

There are records for a later date and I think James may be older but thought I would run the details by you as I know you have some???

Hi Willsy,

Thank you for taking the time to find and post the details of the WW1 record for a Robert Welch, unfortunately it is not the right family. Robert Welsh jnr was sent to live in Canada in 1892.
Robert jnr did serve in WW1 in the Canadian Overseas Expeditionary Force. Enlisting on the 28 June 1915. And the record posted would not be for his Father whom was 20 years older than this man. All the same thanks for your results & efforts put into this family.

[willsy]

It was one of those you know is not quite right but... and then sometimes it leads elsewhere.

[Sal1525]

James Saunders first husband of Ellen was born approx. 1877 Chatham. 1901 census living at 23,King Street, Rochester. St. Margaret's.  Occupation - hawker of flowers. Aunt Nell was a florist/hawker of flowers when I was a little girl. She used to get up very early, go and buy her flowers, come home and make them up into posies and button holes and take them round the pubs in Portsmouth selling them from a big wicker basket. Happy memories.

Lovely to hear your stories helps to build a fuller picture of each individual. So, Ellen was a Hawker of flowers, I didn`t know that, and Robert senior was also a Hawker at times, I wonder if they kept in touch, she stated that he was alive in 2 of her marriage entries and on the 3rd in May 1923 stated he was deceased and on all 3 marriage entries said that he was her Father and a Hawker.
I suppose it is possible that Robert moved to Portsmouth or visited her, worked alongside Ellen at all, if still alive up to 1923? How would she know when he had died if she was not in touch with him or someone else that knew Robert?

James Saunders, thank you Loopyloo, I did not know his origins, but he married Ellen in 1897 Portsea, was that where they met as I am unable to figure out how Ellen ended up in Portsmouth in the beginning----through Robert or James?
Or, did she meet him in Chatham and travel to Portsea with his job, no that can`t be right as he was a costermonger and you say another Hawker of flowers---his Father was also a Hawker, were they gypsies, umm could Robert have known them and that is how Ellen met James? And if she did meet James in the Medway Towns then she would have had contact with her Mother.

And I agree with you Willsy that it is worth following through with records no matter how remote they may be from a family as they well could turn out to have a connection somewhere down the line.

[Sal1525]

Ellen Welsh/McCarthy. When Robert registered Ellen at two schools in 1889 he gave her previous school as St. Francis of Assisi RC, Notting Hill. September 1889 he gives his address as 23, Griffin Street, Lewisham. This information could be a lead to Obinia as she gives her place of birth (approx. 1888) as Notting Hill, London on the 1911 census.

Back again. I`m with you on that one LL. Does anyone know what the actual registration district for Notting Hill, London was? Was it specifically Kensington & Chelsea? I also think that Obinia might have been born in the Notting Hill, London area about 1886-1888, but there is a possibility that she may have been born in Leicestershire.
Brother John was born Jan 1886 so Betsy could have had another child from that same year up to about Jun 1888, after that James would have been conceived, estimate, then born in the first quarter of 1889 and baptised April 1889 in Kensington.

In trying to pin down where Obinia was born by tracking Robert & Betsy`s movements to see if that gives us any insight;

Florence C Murphy
Admission into the St Clement Road School was 16 June 1884.  Address; St Clements Road.
Age 11, I don`t know what age a child would have left the school back then and having left was that their schooling over for a pupil?
Her previous school was St Francis RC which fell in to the same district as where she was living in St Clements Rd and the next school that she attended. The point being, I think we all agree, that Betsy & Robert moved here to be near her family and the schools were recommended by Ellen & Martin perhaps?

Robert & Betsy---1884 in Leicester, Daughter Louisa Welsh was born 12 Oct and died Oct qtr. Up to 1886 Robert was under Military training according to his service records based at this time in Leicester but where his training took him I don`t know.

John Welsh was born 2 Jan 1886 and then baptised 13 Jan 1886 at St Barnabus, Islington after this Robert & Betsy return to Leicester and lived in lodgings in Abbey Street; 24 Jul 1886 as reported in the newspaper under suspicion of deserting the Army. Abbey Street is where Louisa died so they may well have just been visiting family or friends for a short time, Christmas, when John was born and not actually living in London.

Between July 1886-25 Feb 1889 we do not know where they were living until Ellen goes to school at St Clements.

Daughter Ellen went to St Clements from 25 Feb 1889 onwards, address St Katherine's Road, the same road Betsy`s Mother was at. And in 1889 James was born in Kensington.
Then they moved to Lewisham where Ellen goes to school at Frankham Street School 23 Sep 1889.
Some time after this Robert & Betsy move to Chatham, Kent minus the children and Daughter Florence was born 13 Sep 1890, address 155 The Brook.

If Robert was the man that had deserted the Army then he was based in Yorkshire but my hunch, as with yours, is that Obinia was born somewhere in London but the 1901 census does say that Obinia was born in Millwall--could they have lived there for a time, if so what was the registration district name for this area?

Another possible clue to Obinia`s real identity may be the fact that her Mother named all of the Welsh/Welch children after family members, although we do not have all of the extended family details, was Obinia named after family?

Robert----after his Father.
John------after Betsy`s Father & Brother & Uncle. Robert`s relation John (baptism record)
Louisa----after Betsy`s Sister Louisa Dixon Barnes/Merchant.
Florence--after Betsy`s half-sister Florence Columbius Murphy.
James----after her Uncle & cousins.
Ellen------after her Mother & Grandmother.

Other known female family members; Susannah Matlock; Betsy/Elizabeth; Mary Dixon; Maria Barnes; Sarah Glover Brewin; Jane Welsh (baptism record)
That is all for now but I will catch up with you all soon.

[Sal1525]

Ever searching for them, a bit more information has popped up on a tree that has the Australian info.

Marriage to Joseph Patrick Kilbride
1890 1 Sep Age: 18
Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Church of The Sacred Heart, Lauriston St

Death as
1909 22 May Age: 37
Leamington, Warwickshire, England
In the road near Avenue Station

To match
FLORENCE   KILBRIDE
Birth year    1869
Age    40 Q2
Death year    1909
District    WARWICK 6D/366

Joseph Patrick Kilbride
Birth 7 Feb 1869 in Bradford, Yorkshire, England
Death 8 Jun 1945 in Rhyl, Flintshire, Wales

Joseph's death as in Wales on BMD

Hi Willsy,

Well done for finding the Kilbride information. How did you manage that, with such an uncommon name in the 18th century there were not many results revealed on ancestry & FindMyPast, good work.
That Florence & Joseph in Warwickshire looks very promising, if correct then the deaths are why we could not find Florence in the 1911 census.
The Scottish marriage, who did that Joseph marry please, does it say? Thanks for the details of Hannah Cronin. I will chase these people up soon but got to dash now.

[willsy]

ooh sorry, that was all info that suddenly appeared on a tree (the one with the daughter going to Australia), it's Joseph's marriage to Florence but I haven't found it. It also gave those details of death for Florence and I found the reg after. I couldn't find anything in the papers to back it up.

I thought Joseph might be the one in Lincoln 1911 ages ago with a Hannah, then I found the marriage reg for Jo and Hannah, the tree did not give details.

[willsy]

I think this is Joseph

Lincolnshire Echo 17 May 1932

PARTNERSHIP

Well-known Novelty Showman  (member of Showman's Guild) REQUIRES energetic YOUNG MAN to take interest and help to manage sideshow, £50 half share, strict business man only need write letters only for interview-JOSEPH P. KILBRIDE, Grosvenor Hotel, 11 Horne-street, Scunthorpe

[Sal1525]

Hi,

Ooh, well done Willsy for the Kilbride details. It could well be that the Joseph in the newspaper was the one we have been searching for as he was a scene-painter and that may well have taken him into the fairgrounds & circuses. He may be found in the Showman Guild archives, I will have a look later to see what I can find.

[Dizzifish]

Hello all....

Just catching up, to see how things are going.

I had tried looking for Obinia's birth registration - I have searched Kensington registration  district 1886 up to Q2 in 1888, but nothing promising as yet, I haven't had chance to get back to it yet.

Just following on from the extra information that Willsy has posted on the Kilbride family...... I had previously found Joseph Patrick Kilbride in 1911 with Hannah, who I presumed was Cronin, the census had a ? in the marriage entry - they didn't marry until Q4 of 1911 in Grimsby registration district where they then had a daughter.

Births Mar 1912   
Kilbride    Maggie    /  Cronin -  Grimsby  7a   1097

If it is correct that Florence died in 1909, then I am thinking  the son & daughter born in  Ireland belong to Hannah Cronin & the other children were Joseph & Florence Kilbride's.... but the youngest child must have only been weeks old when Florence died?

Births Dec 1906   
Killbride -  Hannah Winifred -  Grimsby  7a 622
~ ~ ~
Births Jun 1908   
Kilbride    Emma Josephine -  S. Shields  10a 973
~ ~
Births Jun 1909   
KILBRIDE  Mary Kate -  S. Shields    10a 921

I had also previously looked at the Hunt family who Florence (Murphy) Kilbride was with in 1891. Elizabeth Hunt was  nee' Shepherd born Binbrook  in Lincolnshire, but I couldn't see a definite connection.

I had worked out she first married Alfred Henderson in 1868 and second marriage to Benjamin Hunt in 1875 at Bradford Parish Church - marriage copy on Ancestry.

You think the Welch families take some untangling? - then this fits in really well with them 

I think the Scottish 1890 marriage might shed more light on Florence & Joseph Kilbride, but I can't see them in the indexes and I don't have a sub to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

The online tree that Willsy has found, implies that Joseph Kilbride's parents are:  Alfred Henderson & Elizabeth Shepherd ( she then married Benjamin Hunt who Florence is with, in 1891).

Here are the census details so you can check and see what you think ? was Joseph Kilbride really Joseph Henderson? and was the grandson  in 1911 really Alfred Kilbride ?

1911 - 218 Bowling Old Lane Bradford, Yorkshire

1901 - 20, Euston Grove, Morecambe, Poulton, Bare and Torrisholme, Lancaster - RG13 /Piece  3985 /Folio 104 /Page 9

1901 - 242, Bowling Old Lane, Bradford, Yorkshire -    RG13 /Piece 4146 /Folio 74 /Page 5

1891 - Bowling Old Lane, Bowling, Bradford, Yorkshire. - RG12 /Piece 3619 /Folio 5 /Page 6

1881 - 110, Cotewall Road, Bowling, Bradford, Yorkshire - RG11 /Piece 4439 /Folio 70 /Page 29
NOTE: Charles & Harriet Shepherd are living next door with son Sanderson and lodger Emma Shepherd

1871 - Cooks Row, Barrow on Humber, Glanford Brigg, Lincolnshire - RG10 /Piece 3437 /Folio 5 / Page 3