Hi Dizzifish & Willsy,
Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! Oh my Lord; Lordy, Lordy me!! Whoopee!! Yippee!! Yeehah!
Well done to the both of you, absolutely fantastic work! You two are both a-m-a-zing!
Yet again I cannot believe my own eyes, great work. Thank you xxxx
James Welch
SON of Robert & Elizabeth Welch-----NOT the mystery man Smith
The baptism record occurred in the same place that Betsy`s Mother and Step-father were living at--in St. Katherine`s Road.
In the 1891 census, same road, the Ecclesiastical parish was St James Norland. Ellen & Martin Murphy definitely lived in this area 1884-1891, Florence school record 1884 & the 1891 census. You have found the correct James and parents. Brilliant.
Inwardly I had hoped that we might look for James during this recent combined search for Betsy`s family but I never thought that we would find him, wonderful.
I knew it, I strongly suspected that Betsy & Robert had not separated pre-1890, for me, supported with your finding his military records, newspaper reports etc... and then your finding Florence`s birth details blew the allegation that he was deceased and separated right out of the water, your findings keep confirming that they were together as a couple a lot longer than had first been believed according to Betsy.
Betsy lied. It is extremely likely that Robert Welsh was the Father of all of the children pre-Thomas Brown days from 1891.
Nor did I believe that there was a man named Smith involved with this family, that this was a very canny lie told by Betsy when dealing with child agencies to deliberately deceive and deter them from finding the rightful alledged `Father`s` of the children by giving a very common surname with Smith---should they have wanted them to take responsibility for the kids etc...
The 1906 report said that James Welch, alias Smith, whereabouts unknown, age 17--so born in 1889 which backs up your birth details.
1906 report;-James Welch alias Smith & Ellen Welsh alias McCarthy, I think the aliases might be as a result of people or someone who brought them up---their respective carers, which was not Betsy Merchant. Did James die or was placed in care as he was not with Betsy & Robert in 1890 Chatham, Kent?
Obinia was most likely to have been born between 1886-1888. The Son John having been born January 1886 in Islington.
Ellen Welsh
St Clements Road School was around the corner from St Katherine`s Road, where Elizabeth, Robert, Ellen & Martin Murphy were all living. The same school that Florence Columbius Murphy went to, Betsy`s sister.
I have yet to view the school records but Frankham Street School; refers to St Francis---Florence C Murphy also went to a school with that name----so was Betsy & Robert moving from place to place, on the whole, with her Mother, think so? Notting Hill was also one of the places listed for Obinia`s POB.
The birth details 15 Feb 1879 could be correct or baptism date or another ploy to avoid being traced by the real Father if apt?.
Although there is a good chance here that Ellen was the real Daughter of Robert Welsh and that Robert & Betsy were together as a couple just prior to the 1881 census taken in Derby.
Or, Betsy could have had a brief relationship with another and then Robert raised her as his own and purposefully given a different name to the enumerator in the 1881 census-Susannah? I will take another look this evening for her baptism record, you never know we might get lucky again.
A possibility for Ellen;1891 census-Horsleydown St John, St Olave, Southwark
Address; Fennimore Place, Church Street.
Ellen Welch, age 10, Scholar, Born 1881 London. Granddaughter.
Mary Welch, 15y, Furriers apprentice, born 1876 London. Granddaughter.
Catherine McCarthy, widow, Mother, 69y, Born Ireland. Paralyzed. 1822
Julia McCarthy, head, widow, 33y, Born St Johns, London. Furrier. 1858
Norah McCarthy, Sister, 31y, single, Furrier, Born St Johns, London. 1860
Possible, the Welch girls do not necessarily have to be Sisters or Granddaughters of the McCarthy`s, just find this record very interesting.
Sadly, it is looking more and more probable that Robert cooperated with Betsy when placing their children into care.
Willsy & Dizzifish thank you, you have made my day. xx
