Marriage look up Merchant to Brewin.

[Sal1525]

Hi Willsy,

You think that is Ellen & John in the 1861 census with Son John? Ellen`s age and POB fit. I have no idea where John snr was born-I will look up John Jr's birth-I did not find anything substantial for Leic-maybe he was born elsewhere. Optician in 1861? What did that entail in the 1860s? 1860 & 1862 John was a Master Cutler, possibly a Cabinet maker in 1864---why would you go from being an Optician to a Cutler-unless- he made tools, instruments for Opticians?
Not sure about this but will chase it up some time.

Thanks for the marriage detail, much appreciated. I have just read through this thread again, trying to get the handle on Ellen`s timeline and relationships with the men and her kids, going on the findings here--and not completely sure yet of who all of these kids belong to, no offence meant to anyone that has contributed to the thread-just trying to get to grips with everything, here goes;

1835 Ellen Glover Brewin born Hull, Yorkshire. Parents; Benjamin Brewin & Ellen/Eleanor Glover.

1841c-St. Botolph, Lincoln. Joseph & Ellen Dixon & Elizabeth, Sarah & Ellen Brewin.

1851c-Burley`s Lane, Leic. Eleanor Gregory; Joseph Dixon & Ellen & Benjamin Brewin.

1852-Burley Lane, Leic; marries John Barnes.

1853-Dtr Maria Barnes born, Chr/ & died Leicester.

1854-1859 Leicester-- separated from Thomas at some point and met John Merchant.

1860-Royal East Street, Leic; Son John Merchant born and Chr/ (christened)

1861c-Cheshire with both John Merchant`s.

1862-Royal East Street, Leic;-Dtr Betsy Merchant born & chr/.

1864-Lower Leicester (newspaper report)-Thomas marries Emma and John goes to prison.

1865-Leicester-Court case with Thomas and John Merchant dies. Kids rechristened Barnes and Louisa Dixon Barnes born. About 1864-65 she may have been in residence in some Union in Leic; (newspaper)

1865-1870 had a relationship with a Joseph Kilbride?

1871c-Shropshire with Martin Murphy & kids.

1872-Huddersfield-Dtr Florence born. Kilbride or Murphy?

1881c-Castleton, Lancs; with Martin Murphy and Dtrs.

1891c-with Martin Murphy & kids.

1893-Nottingham--Elizabeth Ellen Kilbride born.

1901-Green Street, Leic; Ellen Barnes with dtr.

Did I miss anything? I have yet to view all of the censuses that you have found but was John & Betsy Merchant in them after 1862? Great work from all of you and far, far more than I knew before I joined this board. I will look at the men in her life and try to chase up more records for Ellen and try and add to all that you have found tomorrow.  Thank you very much.

[Sal1525]

Willsy,

Please don`t be sorry you and the other volunteers have really opened up this stale search for me, so exciting to begin to piece everything together.
The burial I will file away but you could be right as she was listed as Ellen Barnes in the 1901 census. Need to have a look for her in the 1911 census tomorrow see if we can pinpoint her death records.
off to put my feet up for the rest of the evening, back tomorrow.

[willsy]

I'm not sure about that death,in the census returns the children are with her

1861 John Merchant
1871 John, Elizabeth, Luisa (Louisa) Murphy
1881 Louisa, Florence C Murphy

Here's Benjamin's baptism

http://www.lincstothepast.com/Records/RecordDisplayTranscript.aspx?oid=515342&iid=43008

This is the interesting one

Louisa Dixon Barnes 7A/ 203 Q2 Leicester

[Sal1525]

Hi.

Thank you Willsy, I agree with you that Louisa Dixon Barnes is a bit of a mystery, to me at the moment.
I have searched through the birth GROs and the closest match for John Merchant jnr born in 1860, which tallies with your 1861 census, no matches in Leic;

John Merchant 1860 AMJ Northampton Vol-3B Pge-55.

I have ordered the birth cert; so we will have to wait and see if his Mother was Ellen Brewin.
Back on-line this evening.

[Dizzifish]

Hello .......

Willsy - pleased you managed to find the burial for the Ellen Barnes in 1908 as I would have been wondering if it was our Ellen, but sadly it isn't.....it would just have completed her life to have found what happened to her.

I traced the Barnes family from those burials and they can all be found together .The John Barnes was born Halstead, Leics and married Ellen Rimmel 1866..... so it isn't the correct Ellen.

I can't see Ellen in 1911 or her daughter Florence Kilbride - just pondering; if we can't find a marriage for Florence to a Joseph Patrick Kilbride, either they never married or married outside England & Wales? - as Kilbride is a Scottish name, maybe there?

It is strange that John Merchant seemed to have a variety of occupations.... 1861 it was optician and very interesting that on the 1881 census when Ellen is now Murphy under occupation she says "Formerly Optician".

The 1891 census you found does look like Martin Murphy with Ellen, right birthplace but ages way out and Frederick aged 12 given as son?..... but I can't come up with anything else.

Hi Sal1525, it looks like you have got to grips with following this thread, probably because you know how complex Ellen's daughter Elizabeth/Betsy's life turned out to be..... seems to have been a pattern passed down from grandmother, mother to daughter..... I think they had to do what they could to stay out of the workhouse?

The only bit I think you have muddled is; it is Ellen's daughter, Florence Murphy who married Joseph Patrick Kilbride.

[willsy]

Hi Dizzifish

I didn't think it was Ellen's death nor could I find anything 1911.

[Sal1525]

Hi Willsy & Dizziefish,

Great work from you both in regards to the death of Ellen Barnes in 1908--Ellen Rimmel-thank you both. Dizziefish thanks for pointing out my error about Florence`s relationship with Joseph Kilbride.

Just to recap; Ellen had relationships with Thomas Barnes & John Merchant & Martin Murphy for sure, possibly a Dixon. And, Ellen Brewin`s children were;

Maria Barnes
Born-OND 1853 Leic; Vol-7A Pge 154 Father Thomas Barnes.
CHR/ 13 Nov 1853 in St Margaret`s parish, Leic. Abode-Burley Lane.
Died-AMJ 1854 Leic; Vol-7A  Pge-112. Buried 10 May 1854 at Welford Rd Cemetery.

John Merchant
Born 1860 place yet to be determined. Father John Merchant.
CHR/ 30 May 1860 St Margaret`s parish, Leic; Abode Royal East Street.

Betsy Merchant aka Elizabeth.
Born--JAS 1862 Leic; Vol-7A Pge-168 Father John Merchant.
CHR/ 10 Aug 1862 St Margaret`s, Leic. Abode-Royal East Street.

Louisa Dixon Barnes
Born-AMJ 1865 Leic; Vol-7A Pge-203. Father unknown.
CHR/

Florence Columbius Murphy
Born-OND 1872 Huddersfield Vol-9A Pge-363. Father Martin Murphy.
CHR/
Married Joseph Patrick Kilbride.

Frederick Murphy
Born about 1879 London. Father Martin Murphy.
CHR/

And to add, Betsy & John Merchant were rechristened 5 March 1865 Barnes. The year that John Merchant may have died, Thomas Barnes went to prison and Louisa was born AMJ qtr.
Was Louisa christened-is she in any of your records? Thomas married Emma in 1864 so she could still be the Daughter of John Merchant? Ellen would have been age 44 thereabouts when she had Frederick-plausible. Have I got the above details right please?

[Sal1525]

Hi,

Now that I have a better picture of Ellen Brewins partners and children I am starting to take a look into the censuses that you have found for her and will begin to view them all properly from tomorrow and try to find some more of the BMDs for Ellen`s family. Brilliant work from you all.

The 1861 census details in this thread stands out more so at present because John Merchant`s occupation is throwing me side ways--Optician. John jnr & Ellen`s details appear to `fit` our John jnr & Ellen with birth ages and Ellen`s birth place, again I don`t know enough about John to comment on his age and pob in this census. The job does not make sense, yet, if he is to be tied in with the Leicester facts.

1860 Northampton John jnr born.
1860 Leicester John jnr CHR/ Father a Cutler.
1861 Cheshire census. John an Optician.
1862 Leicester Betsy born & CHR. Father a Master Cutler.

I am keeping in mind here that he could have been a knife sharpener and claiming to be a Master Cutler but if he was a Master then he would have served an apprenticeship for some years, unless someone is able to explain what was required to become a Master please, anyone have any ideas?
Would John have served an apprenticeship to become an Optician, was their a register of Opticians in England at that time?
I suppose he could have been trained by a family member e.g a Father or Uncle that were operating as established Opticians?
The job changes seem too radical and occurring in such a short space of time.
I wonder, could he have become bankrupt as an Optician, and switched back to another Trade that he had been trained in--Cutler?

Well we shall know for sure if we have the right couple once John Merchant jnrs birth cert; arrives. Sorry Dizziefish I did not pick up on your already having found his birth details.
That`s all for tonight.

[Rab65]

Hello,

I am not taking all this in or Sals message boards I will just follow the postings, I will pm Sal to help me with this family its all too confusing. The birth details for Betsy Merchant was
27 July 1862 address 45 Royal East Street, Leicester. John Merchant a Master Cutler and Ellen Merchant once Brewin. Registered by the Mother 7 August 1862. Registrar Robert Warburton.
Hey-well done for all the research that is taking place.