Marriage look up Merchant to Brewin.

[Sal1525]

Hi,

Rab I have sent you another pm and happy to help you.

I have found a record in the England & Wales Criminal Registers, 1791-1892 for John Marchant, the same person that we have found in the newspaper reports.

Date of Trial; 17 Oct 1864 Leicestershire.
Entry no 8. John Marchant-Common Larceny.
"Prisoner is now a lunatic in the County Lunatic Asylum under the Secretary of States Warrant. The recognizances of the witnesses were ordered to be discharged."

I then searched through the entire 52 pages of the 1861 census found for John & Ellen in the hope of finding more family members but there were none, just a Louisa Barnes from Manchester, age 21 on page 16 but I do not think that she has anything to do with Thomas Barnes.
In regards to John Merchant/Marchant I will put him on hold until the two (birth & death) certificates arrive.
In the meantime I shall continue to look for Ellen`s kids details and view the censuses for Ellen from 1861 onwards which you have found. I`ll not delve into the extended Brewin family at present.

Whilst chasing up the newspaper reports for Thomas Barnes I came across the following who I think was Ellen`s Husband, what do you think?

The Leicester Mercury 11 Sep 1854. Assaults.
"Thomas Barnes charged with assaulting Catherine Squires, who said on 2nd Sep, Barnes went to her Mothers house in Burleys Lane, Leic where he struck her several times. Defendant used to lodge with her Mother. Fined 20 shillings or 3 weeks prison. Another Warrant out for Barnes for assaulting his Wife-but she did not appear in Court."

In 1854 his Daughter Maria died and he and Ellen were still living together at Burleys Lane----has to be the same couple and perhaps why she left him? Would you agree?

Another, forgot to take down the newspaper details, looks like the same Thomas?
18 April 1885 "James Bateman, Brother-in-law threatened Thomas Barnes of 11 New Road, Burleys Lane, Leic." Case dismissed.
Has Thomas gone on to marry or live with a Bateman?
Back later.

[willsy]

I've found Elizaberth Ellen Kilbride's baptism online, birth dated as on certificate and baptism before the amendment

Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
Name:    Elizabetha Helena Kilbride
Birth Date:    21 Dec 1892
Baptism Date:    5 Feb 1893
Parish:    St Joseph's, Lancashire, England
Father's Name:    Josephi Kilbride
Mother's name:    Florentiae Murphy

[Sal1525]

Hi Willsy,

Well done for finding the baptism for E. E Kilbride. This makes me wonder as to whether or not Joseph and Florence married in a Roman Catholic church--if so then most of those records would not be available to view on-line.
It may prove productive to have another search in the Liverpool RC registers for a marriage for them both.
To add to your findings over at ancestry I found the details for Elizabeth`s birth, thanks to the previous posting on this thread; 21 Dec 1892 at Prospect Place, Canal Street, Nottingham but her Mother`s address was 10 Cazneau Street, Liverpool?
Father Joseph a Theatrical Scene Painter-----so, did he travel around theatres, schools or something similar, I`m not clear as to what this profession entailed?

Elizabeth Ellen Kilbride--aka Ellen--married Alfred Percy Purches 17 March 1914 at St. Alkmund, Derby. GRO-JFM 1914 Derby Vol-7B Pge-818

It looks as if Alfred was born 1887 Islington, London and died 1954 Sidcup, Kent.
But Elizabeth died 29 Jan 1988 Bondi, New South Wales, Australia. I wonder if she remarried?

I have yet to look up a 1911 census for Elizabeth and her Mother or to carry out a search for Joseph.

[willsy]

I started to look for them but got absorbed looking for Ellen's death, can't work out what the declaration is for, have the reg for 1893 but there should be something Q1 1892 unless she wasn't registered at birth. Might have answered my own question there but no expert, have only come across a declaration once before and that was easy, my great grandmother named 3 children as belonging to her dead husband up to 5 yrs later!

I had the same thoughts about the parents marrying in a Catholic church.

[willsy]

If you look at the electoral rolls Australia 1980, she is with her daughter Patricia Georgina, there's a passenger list Fremantle Jun 1963 Vessel Fairsea, just the 2 of them traveling together

[Sal1525]

Hello again,

Yesterday I was able to go through the census returns that you all found for Ellen Brewin and I do think that you have found the right records for the same Ellen, again the 1861 has me perplexed but seems to follow through with the others, going on from the 1871 census;

1871. Searched 51 pages. New Street, Wellington, Shropshire.
The kids ages and places of birth do match with what we have learnt here which is promising, but I was surprised to see that the enumerator stated that Elizabeth was paralized? The 1881 & 1891 & 1901 & 1911 censuses for her do not say that she was paralized or disabled in any way. Perhaps it was a temporary situation- down to illness? If she was disabled in some way that might also have added to her life struggles and played a part in her moral demise?
Ellen`s POB Isle of Man--I will chase that up to see if it pans out but she may have made it up having gone through what she did with Thomas Barnes & John Merchant etc... and Martin is now away from his Mariner profession so perhaps they were trying to avoid people/detection, start anew?
Martin was born New York which I believe he was of Irish descent. Their Daughter Florence`s middle name Columbius---I wonder if she was named after a Town that he may have come from--Columbus a Town in Chenango County, New York?
Their immediate neighbour was a Thomas & Diana Gregory which I shall file away in case that has something to do with Ellen`s Mother. And on page 3 was a Jane Glover from Salop, Blymhill.

1881 Census. Searched 38 pages.
6 Church Stile Model Lodging House, Castelton, Lancs.
Again the correct people with John absent. (Betsy was in Derby with Robert Welsh) Martin`s gone back to being a Seaman and Ellen a former Optician, you are right here---it does tie in with the 1861 census. The occupations of Seaman & Hawker also explains why they were moving around a lot.
Florence was at School- St Francis Roman Catholic----which further endorses my belief that Martin was a Roman Catholic and probably the reason why we have not found her baptism record.
There were a lot of Irish people in the area, along with Ellen`s prior family ties in Lancashire it all sounds correct. A few Murphy families in the area, not an uncommon name I know.

1891 Census. Searched 64 pages. St Katherine`s Road, Kensington, London.
Martin still a Mariner, age 61. Correct details for Ellen. This record is the same couple that you have been tracing.
Ellen could have been Mother to Frederick age 12-just about--I will try to find a School record for him or he could possibly be the Son of Louisa or Betsy?
Betsy had an illegitimate child Ellen in 1879 in this district or Hammersmith?; and another Daughter Obinia/Althenia (not her real name) born about 1888 Notting Hill and I had wondered what brought  her to London, aside from passing through, so perhaps they had even more family members living in the area. Page 3 was a John Brewin and family. and quite a few Murphy families in St Katherine`s Road and the adjoining Street.
In 1891 Betsy was in Chatham and seperated from all of her children--living with a Thomas Brown.

1901 Census. Searched 28 pages. 6 Lower Green Street, Leicester.
Ellen having reverted back to the name of Barnes leaves me to believe that she did not marry Martin Murphy at all. Returning to Leic; her home Town for many years--Thomas Barnes deceased, scandal forgotten?
Ann Brewin; Joseph Gregory and a Dixon family in the vicinity and a few Murphy`s.
Where has Joseph Kilbride gone?

That is as far as I got with the censuses but shall search for the 1911 census and try to find out what become of John jnr, Louisa and Florence. I am grateful to you all for your input.

[willsy]

So far to add to the pot

1901
RG13; Piece: 3093; Folio: 175; Page: 39
John Marehunt

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/2D1J-7N7

He's from Peterborough but I can't see anything 1881/1891 to help

[willsy]

Think this might be him 1881 but c 1854
RG11; Piece: 3277; Folio: 51; Page: -8

c 1857 here

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X7YJ-BZL

No family names at all, not sure 

[Dizzifish]

I know you have been hoping for more details on Elizabeth/Betsy's husband, Robert Welsh.

Last night I thought I would do a bit of newspaper trawling for myself, when a few things cropped up to put ideas in my head and off I went, on a tangent and one thing led to another.....

The Derby Mercury, Wednesday, February 2, 1881.
A Recruit - ROBERT WELSH was charged with being drunk in Iron-gate on the previous afternoon. - Prisoner said he joined the Militia on the previous day and was celebrating the event. - Fined 5s and costs, or seven days.

~ ~ ~ ~
The Derby Mercury  Wednesday, March 2, 1881.
A Fraudulent Enlistment - ROBERT WELSH was charged with making a false attestation on being enrolled in the 1st Derby Militia. - He admitted the offence. - Sergeant O'Connor said the prisoner when asked whether he had ever served in or been rejected by this or any other militia regiment answered in the negative. He had since acknowledged that he served one training in the Nottinghamshire Militia. - Prisoner was sent to gaol for 14 days.
~ ~ ~ ~

I have seen his militia attestation papers, I confess, I don't understand everything.....there is the first signing in January 1881, which fits with the newspaper articles, then he signed up again in June 1882.

He said he lived at 19, Walkers Lane, Derby.... must be your Robert? said he was born Belper, Derbyshire and was Roman Catholic - by second signing in 1882 his address was 3, Orchard St, Leicester.
List of dates each year from 1886 to 1890 which says re engaged 1.7.90 then 1891 Absent.

If you want the whole file details they are here : http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-united-kingdom-records-in-military-armed-forces-and-conflict