David Richard/Richards of Strygosfawr, Lledrod.

[despair]

The problem with a Lucy being named as Rachel's sister in 1754 is that in all the wills she is referred to as Mary
1749 Morgan Richards' daughter
1756 David Richards' grand daughter
1765 Benjamin Richards' sister

As to Thomas,the position is equally unclear.
The 1780/1784 reference gives a Thomas "..late of Lledrod,then of Parliament Street.."I don't know if it is significant that it does not say "..now of..".However it is Thomas Richards of Parliament St who marries Lucy Walters in 1770.Clearly he cannot be the father of Lucy in 1773 with Jane(I think this Lucy dies aged two months).
There are a couple of possibilities
1.This Thomas/Jane are just a coincidence.
2.There is a father and son both named Thomas.The father is married to Jane,and they may be the parents of Lucy in 1773,but both die before 1777,consistent with the indenture reference.
The son marries Lucy Walters and is alive in 1784.
This would also imply that Jane was probably born at the earliest 1730(aged 43 at Lucy's birth),but we can't read anything re Thomas' age into that.Does it hint that the Thomas of the 1722 indenture(Penybryn Merllyd),who must have been born circa 1700 is yet another,as otherwise there is a 30 year age gap between Thomas and Jane.

Regards
Roger

[Viking666]

I agree with you regarding the birth of a new Lucy in 1773. Just one of those name coincidences and nothing to do with our family. How strange that the error in the 1754 Indenture exchanges the name from Mary to Lucy.
We have information on the children of the Rev. David as follows ...
Elizabeth, married to James Morrice
Morgan, married to Margaret
Gwen, married to the Rev. Thomas Davies.
   We have nothing on the son, Thomas Richards except that we can guess a DoB at 1710/15. We can say with certainty that he isn't the Thomas of the 1722 Indenture. however, he may be the Thomas, (late of Lledrod), that dies before 1777. (He may also be the Thomas who is shown in negotiations for Bryn Issaf, thus causing us some head thumping).This doesn't mean that he interferes with our Thomas (+ Jane) of Bryn Issaf who is shown to marry Lucy Walters and is still alive in later entries.   

[Viking666]

 Ignore that last post ... I'm looking for the Thomas, in the company of Elizabeth Richards and Leticia Richards that were shown linked to Bryn Issaf and shown as deceased. Mixed up my line of thought after finding a will of 1761 for a Thomas Richards. It used to be Davids, now it's Thomases.
                                               Apologies from me.

 Just picked up my train of thought again. The will of 1761 is for Thomas Richard of Caron. He has a daughter named Elizabeth. Leticia was David of Ffos' wife ? This may have been the remnant of an earlier negotiation and nothing to indicate who was actually living there at the time.

[despair]

Here is one possible view of the Thomas Richards "of Lledrod"?

Thomas,son of Morgan,described as "late of Lledrod","then of Westminster".I think the "late" only implies"previously".Benjamin,his brother,was born early 1730s,so Thomas would be mid to late 1730s making him a candidate for marrying Lucy Walters in 1770 and still being alive in 1784.

Thomas,husband of Jane,dying before 1777.
He could be Thomas,son of David(1756 will),brother of Morgan.Morgan had children approx. 1730,therefore born 1700-1710? A brother of similar age would be a candidate for dying "before 1777.

Thomas of the 1722 indenture.Unlikely to be the Thomas immediately above,But possibly a brother of David(1756 will).

Thomas,father of David of Strygos(1769 reference)? None of the above?

Regards
Roger

[Viking666]

Yes, that looks like the correct order for the two Thomases. In my search for an alternative Thomas, (the search that crossed my wires), I noticed on the indenture that  mentions  Lucy in 1754 that Thomas, the son of Morgan Richards, moves into Hendre Rees (sic) (Rhys), in Llanilar.
   This would mean that Thomas, the brother of Morgan was the one living at Bryn Issaf with his wife Jane. (A clear separation of the two at last.)

II.229
1754, Sept. 10
 INDENTURE, being a grant from David Richards of p. Llanddewy Brevy, co. Card., gent., to Thomas Davies of p. Llanbadarnfawr, co. Rad., clerk, of a tmt called Hendre Rees, p. Llanilar, co. Card., on trust for the said David Richards for his life, with remainder to Thomas Richards of p. Lledrod, co. Card., (second son of Morgan Richards of p. Llanddewy Ystradeny, co. Rad., clerk, dec., who was the eldest son of the said David Richards) and his issue, with similar remainders in succession to Rachel Richards and Lucy Richards, the dau’s of the said Morgan Richards, dec.

[despair]

I had just about finished a convoluted post with an interesting set of connections when I lost it all to a web page error.I'll try again shortly,but will be out from approx. 1700-2100.

Regards
Roger

[despair]

This still needs some work but there looks to be interesting connection here.

In 1711  there is a 20 year lease to  Jenkin Howell of Gwnhafdre for Bwlch y Ddwy Allt.
Gwnhafdre is the property "intermediate" between Ffos y Bleidddiad and Esgair Y Gors("Strygos"?)

In 1712 there is a will of Jenkin Howell of Bwlch y Ddwy Allt,in which he mentions Thomas Evan as his brother-in-law

In 1721 there is a grant from David Richard of Ynis Pervedd,wife Goley,son Richard David) to Thomas Richard of Bwlch y Ddwy Allt of the equity of redemption re Tythyn y bryn merllyd.

In 1722 there is the will of David Richard of Clawdd Kerrig(and Llwyn Goffre) whose wife is Magdalen Jenkin-I have previously speculated that she might be the daughter of Jenkin Howell)

In 1735 there is a will of Thomas Evan of Gwnhafdre

(possibly the fatal flaw here-a "Thomas Evan" of Lledrod,presumably still alive(related to Thomas of 1735?)
In 1738 an indenture from,amongst others,Thomas Evan To Thomas Richard re Tythin Bryn Issa and Bryn Merllyd,culminating in 1739 with a "final concord",releasing to Thomas Richard the two messuages and 456 a. of land in Lledrod.

I hadn't spotted the possible "fatal flaw" until I was formalising the data.Nevertheless,the 1739 "final concord" is interesting in it's own right.


Regards
Roger

[Viking666]

First, ref my last post. This means that John and James were not born at Bryn Issaf. This place of birth was an "educated guess" with the info that John had inherited this property. The other place of birth would be Gwnnws, as proposed in the Williams, Latham, Tomlinson entry. (unreliable). Looking at the indenture it would appear that they would have been born at Llanilar, where Thomas of 1734 is living. If Thomas the grandfather is living at Bryn Issaf, dies in 'before 1777' and then leaves Bryn Issaf to his son Thomas ... with his death, the property would then be inherited by John.

 I was working on just such a convoluted set of 'connections' as yours and have a bit to add to your work in progress.

A will of Thomas Richards of Bwlch y Dwyallt dated 1761, (quoted in an earlier post of mine) with a son, Richard Richards and a daughter, Elizabeth. (There is an interesting line that states that they lose their inheritance if they cease to live together).

A will of David Richard of Ysbyty Ystwyth dated 1677 with an eldest son Thomas Richard; a second son Morgan Thomas, and a youngest son David Thomas. Thomas Richard is left Tythin Y Clawdd Kerrig and Tythin Llwyn Goffre. The second son is left Tythin y pant Ffynnon.
                        Regards, Peter.

[despair]

I'm not familiar with the "unreliable"  data and 1734 indenture that leads you to your conclusion,so I will try to familiarise myself with these before I  comment further.
I had been working backwards from 1777 when the properties were said to be the inheritance of William Davies,through 1761  and 1756 where he has interests in on "Cloddie Cerrig" and "Llwyn y Gofre".Pror to this point there seemed to be a criticall period for the identification of Thomas Richard(s).

Regards
Roger