Author Topic: Westminster / Parliamentary Records  (Read 1820 times)

Offline lamahorse

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Westminster / Parliamentary Records
« on: Wednesday 16 July 14 01:54 BST (UK) »
Hi everyone,

I've previously found evidence that has proved the stories of my gran-aunt about my great grandfather's house was burned to the ground by Auxiliaries in March 1921. Recently, when browsing through the amazing resource that is the Parliamentary Archives I discovered this transcript.

Mr. LUNN asked the Chief Secretary: whether he has received a Report on the destruction by Crown forces, near Skibbereen, on the 9th March, of four houses belonging to persons named Connolly, O'Sullivan, McCarthy, and Driscoll; whether this was an official reprisal; if so, for what offences; and on what principle these houses were selected?

§Sir H. GREENWOOD I am informed by the Commander-in-Chief that the houses of Connolly, O'Sullivan and McCarthy were destroyed by order of the Military Governor. There is no record of the burning of a house in this district, belonging to any person named Driscoll, but if the hon. Member will furnish fuller particulars of this case further inquiry will be made. The Military Governor had reason to believe that Connolly, O'Sullivan and McCarthy, who are now fugitives from justice, were guilty of murdering two loyal farmers.


This leads me to an obvious question which I hope someone can help me out here.

Is there a record of this 'report' on this action? This could be either an Auxiliaries action report; one written up by the Military-Governor-General or one passed on to the minister in question here.

How can I go about searching for it?

Offline Freespirit1

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Re: Westminster / Parliamentary Records
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 16 July 14 09:35 BST (UK) »
There is an archive enquiry service for the parliamentary archives;

Archive Enquiry Services
We can answer simple enquiries over the telephone, but most enquiries should be sent to us by post, fax or e-mail.

If you are telephoning to make a searchroom booking, please also give us your e-mail address if you have one, so we can confirm your appointment by e-mail.

We cannot undertake detailed research for users but we can provide advice about the scope of the records for particular topics. Our Reprographic Service can also supply copies of readily identifiable material, by post or e-mail. We aim to answer all enquiries within 10 working days.

Please ensure you have consulted the following before you send your enquiry:

Frequently Asked Questions
Planning Your Visit
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E-mail   archives@parliament.uk

Phone +44 (0)20 7219 3074

Fax +44 (0)20 7219 2570

Post   Parliamentary Archives, Houses of Parliament, London, SW1A 0PW, United Kingdom

It might be worth contacting them to see if they can guide you in the right direction.

I love all these archive sites but I am so easily distracted that I always end up reading masses of stuff that's nothing to do with my research.....


Offline lamahorse

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Re: Westminster / Parliamentary Records
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 16 July 14 15:30 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the reply.

I gave them a call and they tell me that they cannot determine if there is a report without a specific reference over the phone. Well, in this transcript; it's more alluded to that Sir. Greenwood was briefed by somebody about these affairs and gave this response. What I'm curious about is how Mr. Lunn (not an Irish MP) got information on these events and which Sir. Greenwood would refer to to respond.

They advised me to email them the transcript and someone would try deal with my inquiry.

I have even found a transcript referring to my maternal great great grandfather who was evicted from his farm in the late 1880s and confirmation that he received compensation for an unlawful eviction.

Has anyone had any success/advice for looking up reports and action reports for the Tans or Auxiliaries for their time in Ireland?

Offline Freespirit1

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Re: Westminster / Parliamentary Records
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 16 July 14 17:16 BST (UK) »
I haven't looked for records of this nature before but I wonder if the report arose in Ireland.  The Irish Times has reports of various atrocities around that time but I don't have a subscription so I can't look at them.  Perhaps there would be more information available in The National Archives of Ireland.
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/


Offline Freespirit1

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Re: Westminster / Parliamentary Records
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 16 July 14 17:29 BST (UK) »
Is this one of statements you have already found?  It appears to refer to the same incident


http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0602.pdf


Offline lamahorse

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Re: Westminster / Parliamentary Records
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 17 July 14 09:17 BST (UK) »
Yes, that seems to have been one of the men. The incident in question is pretty widely reported in the media at the time. Here's another witness account of these affairs;

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS1481.pdf#page=9

In a nutshell, what happened was that.

The local IRA went around the Skibbereen area demanding some sort of tax from the local farmers in order to fund their struggle with the Crown Forces. Most farmers paid up but there were many who refused to pay money to who in their eyes; were simply Rebels. More often then not, these were large Protestant landowners or tenant farmers who would have had some Unionist tendencies.

There were two farmers in Lissenihrog, which is a townland adjacent to the farm of my Great-Grandfather. They were prominant Unionists by the names of Sweetman and O'Connoll. The IRA visited them and demanded their 'tax'.

Both of these farmers refused to pay up and news of the IRA imposing taxes on local farmers reached the police who promptly arrested and gaoled the IRA men responsible for collecting this tax. The Irish Times reports that Sweetman and O'Connoll were relucant to testify (for obvious reasons) but were compelled to do so by the authorities.

This effectively was their death sentance as it was common knowledge that these farmers were 'dead men'. Despite all the warnings, Sweetman and O'Connoll stayed on their land until the IRA rounded them up and shot them. As revenge, the Auxillaries billetted in Skibbereen drove up to Mohonagh and burned down a few houses. My great-grandfather's house was one of them.

These affairs are mentioned in Tom Barry's famous book; Guerrila Days in Ireland. Around this time, another volunteer called Patrick Driscoll (a first cousin of my great-grandfather) was shot dead by accident by an overzealous volunteer. Curiously, the week previously a soldier from the Auxillaries died when his rifle discharged whilst they raided Patrick Driscoll's house.
 
What I am seeking is evidence of records on the British end of things about these events. Surely, various paramilitary organisations, the RIC and British Military Intelligence kept some sorts on these affairs. If Mr. Lunn managed to bring up this question to the General Secretary of Ireland; there must have been some committee or monthly reporting of the goings on in Ireland to Westminster. If that's the case; surely there must be a mechanism to access said records.

Although we all are aware at the slow drip drip of information out of Ireland and Britain over the more recent Troubles. I can imagine that there is still a great deal unknown about the period from the top down to the most local of levels of what went on. This block on certain information can serve to paint our history in a different light.

Here in Ireland you can petition the Department of Agriculture to send you a photocopy of all the historical files relating to a certain folio number provided that you have the permission of the current owner. They sent me back a copy of the contract that my great-grandfather signed in 1917 for the Wyndham Land Act but there were many pages missing in the file. Many of these agreements are still state secrets.

All in all; it's difficult to know where to look for files concerning Ireland pre-Independence. Despite the disasterous records fire in 1922; records might have ended up in Belfast or over in London. I'm very grateful for the assistance and ideas you guys have offered up. It's really interesting to see that my great grandfather was involved (when my grandfather knew nothing of) in the most pivotal period of Irish history.

Offline Freespirit1

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Re: Westminster / Parliamentary Records
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 17 July 14 13:52 BST (UK) »
You have obviously done a lot of research already in Ireland and I can understand why you want to see the British side of things.  It is possible to make a Freedom of Information request

https://www.gov.uk/make-a-freedom-of-information-request/the-freedom-of-information-act

but clearly you need to have the relevant information details.  Do you know which regiment of the British army was involved?  I'm just wondering if there is an alternative way of identifying the report referred to in the Westminster archives, say, tracing military information relating to the incident.  Any such sensitive information might be subject to the 100 years' rule but I have recently had access to two naval files from WW2 that are both marked 'Secret' and 'closed until 2041'.

Offline avm228

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Re: Westminster / Parliamentary Records
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 17 July 14 14:21 BST (UK) »
You probably already know this - but if not it may help to know that the Sir H. Greenwood in question was Sir Hamar Greenwood, Chief Secretary for Ireland 1920-1922.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline Freespirit1

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Re: Westminster / Parliamentary Records
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 17 July 14 16:23 BST (UK) »
I've had a browse through a number of the Hansard report summaries relating to Sir Hamar Greenwood and in a number of them he refers to reports given to him by the Royal Irish Constabulary.  I note that you mentioned the auxiliaries and black and tans in an earlier post and, as I understand it, they were working with the RIC at the time.  (Forgive my ignorance, I only have a very limited knowledge of the events at the time.)  Could the report have emanated from the RIC?  there are records at TNA

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/royal-irish-constabulary.htm#

From a brief scan it looks as though the incident could be included in CO 906
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details/redirect/?CATLN=3&CATID=3565&CATREF=CO+906&CATLN=3&CATID=3565&SearchInit=4&SearchType=6&CATREF=CO+906


 or possibly WO 35

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details/redirect/?CATLN=3&CATID=13095&CATREF=WO+35&CATLN=3&CATID=13095&SearchInit=4&SearchType=6&CATREF=WO+35