Author Topic: Help with William BROWN Convict  (Read 15147 times)

Offline majm

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BROWN
« Reply #90 on: Friday 11 July 14 05:35 BST (UK) »
Hi there,

I can confirm that the family search images arrived, and I have spoken at length with one of my elderly rellies re the practicalities of record keeping (a retired clergyman).      The two family search images support the Early Church Records transcriptions, but are images of the parish registers.  Rev McGarvie seems to have married the couple 4 November 1843, and then when writing up the SECOND register in preparation for transmitting the record, he has written 4 December 1843.   I explain, the clergyman has likely had TWO registers on hand for the ceremony, one for the bride, groom and their witnesses to sign, and the other for his 'safe keeping' back up copy.   The bride, the groom and two of their three witnesses have SIGNED and the third witness made his mark.      All would have signed the certificate the clergyman hands to the bride (she was usually handed this as the womenfolk were the ones usually who were asked to prove their status).   

Then sometime near the end of the quarter, the clergymen of all the denominations would need to write up their transmittal register and send it off for the NSW Supreme Court or at least the NSW Chaplains (depending on the era, and by 1840s it was NSW Supreme Court) to record the info in their registers.     

The images that family search sent through to our OP do NOT have the autographs.  They are all in the same hand, which I recognise as Rev McGarvie.   

So it is likely just the one marriage, a Presbyterian service, and it was just days after the baby's Anglican baptism.   

Now, I am aware (and I may have mentioned it at RChat previously), that there's parish records for Christ Church St Lawrence, that may NOT be showing up at NSW BDM's online index.   The ones I am aware of are from both the era when there was just the temporary building, and also just prior to commencement of civil registration.     I will need to find time to go back over some family history research I did on my own tree and Christ Church St Lawrence back in the 1970s to get the exact details, BUT there's "issues" to sort out still. 

 BUT I am NOW quite sure that there was just the one couple, William BROWN and Matilda WATSON in Sydney in that era.

Re The Benevolent Society and Matilda as a pauper .... Sometimes the records are detailed and sometimes scant.   But it was a form of a laying in hospital, so it is likely that's where the baby was born in the May.     A pauper is simply a person without visible means of support at that time, and Debra's suggestion re estrangement from her family makes good sense.    I think the Mitchell Library in Sydney may have the best  depth of records on the Benevolent Society.   

As I could be away for perhaps almost a week, (going to Bundy Qld) may I please be excused until I have had time to get back and then search through my offline resources  ;D   

Many cheers,  JM
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Offline majm

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #91 on: Friday 11 July 14 05:36 BST (UK) »
Hi,

Red post,

Many of the Rev'ds in NSW in the early to mid 19th century needed to be both farmers and clergymen, as there was not sufficient population to fund the clergyman's role. 

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline majm

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #92 on: Friday 11 July 14 05:38 BST (UK) »
Fantastic work from Dundee

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
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Online Dundee

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #93 on: Friday 11 July 14 05:45 BST (UK) »
Remember also that you had to have a degree of 'usefulness' to immigrate.  I think many of us have ancestors who were farmers/farm labourers when they immigrated but in reality wouldn't have known a cow if they fell over it!!

Debra  :)


Offline Akira01000

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Re: BROWN
« Reply #94 on: Friday 11 July 14 06:12 BST (UK) »
Hi there,

I can confirm that the family search images arrived, and I have spoken at length with one of my elderly rellies re the practicalities of record keeping (a retired clergyman).      The two family search images support the Early Church Records transcriptions, but are images of the parish registers.  Rev McGarvie seems to have married the couple 4 November 1843, and then when writing up the SECOND register in preparation for transmitting the record, he has written 4 December 1843.   I explain, the clergyman has likely had TWO registers on hand for the ceremony, one for the bride, groom and their witnesses to sign, and the other for his 'safe keeping' back up copy.   The bride, the groom and two of their three witnesses have SIGNED and the third witness made his mark.      All would have signed the certificate the clergyman hands to the bride (she was usually handed this as the womenfolk were the ones usually who were asked to prove their status).   

Then sometime near the end of the quarter, the clergymen of all the denominations would need to write up their transmittal register and send it off for the NSW Supreme Court or at least the NSW Chaplains (depending on the era, and by 1840s it was NSW Supreme Court) to record the info in their registers.     

The images that family search sent through to our OP do NOT have the autographs.  They are all in the same hand, which I recognise as Rev McGarvie.   

So it is likely just the one marriage, a Presbyterian service, and it was just days after the baby's Anglican baptism.   

Now, I am aware (and I may have mentioned it at RChat previously), that there's parish records for Christ Church St Lawrence, that may NOT be showing up at NSW BDM's online index.   The ones I am aware of are from both the era when there was just the temporary building, and also just prior to commencement of civil registration.     I will need to find time to go back over some family history research I did on my own tree and Christ Church St Lawrence back in the 1970s to get the exact details, BUT there's "issues" to sort out still. 

 BUT I am NOW quite sure that there was just the one couple, William BROWN and Matilda WATSON in Sydney in that era.

Re The Benevolent Society and Matilda as a pauper .... Sometimes the records are detailed and sometimes scant.   But it was a form of a laying in hospital, so it is likely that's where the baby was born in the May.     A pauper is simply a person without visible means of support at that time, and Debra's suggestion re estrangement from her family makes good sense.    I think the Mitchell Library in Sydney may have the best  depth of records on the Benevolent Society.   

As I could be away for perhaps almost a week, (going to Bundy Qld) may I please be excused until I have had time to get back and then search through my offline resources  ;D   

Many cheers,  JM

Hi JM,

Thanks for all of your help, enjoy the break still, absorbing the information just posted.

Enjoy your break
Cheers
Akira

Offline Akira01000

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #95 on: Friday 11 July 14 06:18 BST (UK) »
Remember also that you had to have a degree of 'usefulness' to immigrate.  I think many of us have ancestors who were farmers/farm labourers when they immigrated but in reality wouldn't have known a cow if they fell over it!!

Debra  :)

Hi Debra :),

That's quite funny :)

So with him being a minister/ rev and father listed as a "farmer" possible correlation his father being a minister also?

I'm still amazed at the fact he was a rev / minister that's just amazing!

Cheers
Akira


Offline majm

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #96 on: Friday 11 July 14 06:44 BST (UK) »
https://www.flickr.com/photos/state-records-nsw/14620869401/in/photostream/

Hoping this is a link to Nov 1844 plan showing how near the Benevolent Asylum was to Christ Church St Lawrence  ;D   

Perhaps that gives a good reason for the Anglican baptism  :) 

(NSW SRO flickr updates each Friday, and today they released that 'photo' )

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Offline Akira01000

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #97 on: Friday 11 July 14 07:02 BST (UK) »
https://www.flickr.com/photos/state-records-nsw/14620869401/in/photostream/

Hoping this is a link to Nov 1844 plan showing how near the Benevolent Asylum was to Christ Church St Lawrence  ;D   

Perhaps that gives a good reason for the Anglican baptism  :) 

(NSW SRO flickr updates each Friday, and today they released that 'photo' )

Cheers,  JM

Hi JM,

Wasn't the benevolent asylum sponsored and managed via the anglican church?

I read that somewhere before can't find the reference, site has since moved.

Cheers
Akira

Offline majm

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #98 on: Friday 11 July 14 13:35 BST (UK) »


Re the Benevolent Society.... it was not sponsored by any particular denomination, My various ancestors in Sydney in that era were Anglicans and Wesleyans and Roman Catholics.   I can see where each of those families supported the Benevolent Society, and some of the Wesleyans sat on the board at various stages.   The land where Christ Church St Lawrence's temporary building was donated by John Terry HUGHES and his family.
 http://www.ccsl.org.au/regular-service-times?task=view&id=153
http://www.dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/hosking_john
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2549908
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/hindsight/the-benevolent/4552918 

Gov Lachlan Macquarie's era (1810-1821) oversaw the development of the expansion of 'society' v 'penal colony' ..... many convicts were still alive after the expiration of their sentences, having children, growing old, needing charitable support.   The Church of England was NOT the "Established Church", and other denominations were also recognised,(and in some cases funded, given land grants etc)  in fact other faiths were recognised by Macquarie's governorship.   

http://www0.health.nsw.gov.au/resources/aboutus/history/pdf/pt1medben.pdf  VERY HELPFUL re the Benevolent Society.

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.