Help with William BROWN Convict

[majm]

Well found Debra 

Hi Akira, 

Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists,  formally united in the 1970s, however, even back in the 19th century they co-operated with each other, at least in rural NSW.  And also at higher levels in the long running debate re NSW BDM records for marriages ..... 1856-1895 (what to include in the civil registration, v the sacredness of the Church registers) So I do not find it at all odd or surprising you were given that they were of the Methodist denomination.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniting_Church_in_Australia   

Cheers,  JM

[Akira01000]

Hi All,

Just found William Brown's conviction from the old bailey (Thanks Neil) http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18260622-181-punish912&div=t18260622-181#

Record 1# 17 at the time of conviction estimated age born c1811 (in 1828) "old bailey"

Record 2# 21 on the (convict incidents) which would put his estimated birth at c1805 (In 1828)

Record 3# 80 at the time of his death which would put his estimated birth at c1810 (in 1890)

Now record 1# and 3# both match give or take a year but record 2# doesn't appear to match why would this be the case?

Cheers
Akira

[Akira01000]

Well found Debra 

Hi Akira, 

Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists,  formally united in the 1970s, however, even back in the 19th century they co-operated with each other, at least in rural NSW.  And also at higher levels in the long running debate re NSW BDM records for marriages ..... 1856-1895 (what to include in the civil registration, v the sacredness of the Church registers) So I do not find it at all odd or surprising you were given that they were of the Methodist denomination.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniting_Church_in_Australia   

Cheers,  JM

Hi JM,

That was going to be my next question about the congregational burial as I had only started looking into it 

[Akira01000]

Hi All,

Just found the following record as there is a william atwood brown not matching to the age but he married and had a child in 1837 same name with parents william and emma.

However this record https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JWWH-7ZG parents born 1809 christ 1810 william brown and Elizabeth matches the age in london but not an Emma is Emma a nickname for Elizabeth?

Cheers
Akira

[majm]

Hi there,

Our OP has sent through the NSW BDM issued Marriage certs for their two indexed Early Church Records.  And, yes, there’s TWO different dates, but all the other info that NSW BDM holds is the same to both certificates.  And, as these are from the Early Church Records, NSW BDM does not issue the IMAGE of the original register, and so only issues a typed up transcription.   I continue to be hopeful that the family search organisation’s images will have original signatures to allow a comparison.  Hopefully this will result in confirmation or elimination that it is one (not two) couples named William BROWN and Matilda WATSON who were married in Sydney by Rev McGarvie, in late 1843

............................

Vol 74b, line 3818

William BROWN, Bachelor, of Sydney , and a member of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland,

And

Matilda WATSON, a Spinster, of Sydney, and a member of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland

Married by Banns, at Sydney on 4 December 1843 by Rev John McGARVIE, a Presbyterian Minister, of Sydney. 

Witnesses: 
Margaret Watson and George Watson of Sydney
John Leary (his X mark) of Sydney

..................................

Vol 76, Line 1879

William BROWN, Bachelor, of Sydney , and a member of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland,

And

Matilda WATSON, a Spinster, of Sydney, and a member of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland

Married by Banns, at Sydney on 4 November 1843 by Rev John McGARVIE, a Presbyterian Minister, of Sydney. 

Witnesses: 
Margaret Watson and George Watson of Sydney
John Leary (his X mark) of Sydney


Cheers,  JM

Fingers crossed 

Hi,

So may I suggest that a marriage 4 Nov 1843 and a marriage 4 Dec 1843 most likely means that there's TWO couples.  And that's why I am suggesting you order the images of the original parish registers to have a good look at both those two different sets of records.   The images have the signatures for the bride and the groom and their witnesses.   Even if they needed to make their X mark rather than autograph, these marks can be compared.

The official transcript AND the NSW BDM issued document will NOT have the images.  Both these documents are TYPED up, based on NSW BDM records only.

ADD
As posted earlier
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZD-LH4

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZS-4B7


Cheers,  JM

Hi JM,

I have ordered the Nov image currently and will order the december one next, are you supposed to recieve an email confirmation from the order?

Cheers
Akira

[majm]

I am hoping that part of the images from family search will include the entry no. in the respective parish register, but of course, that is really only a side issue from the main one, FINDING the signatures of the couple and their witnesses, and comparing these.  If I may comment, from my own searchings across the decades, at times Rev McGarvie's scribble has been a scribbled scribble  but other times, easy to read.   I hope he had plenty of ink, plenty of time, and these images are easy to read.

And my fingers are also crossed that on either or both of the images, in the 'white space' near to the signatures for the groom and the bride, there will be some numbers, as in their ages  .  As this will of course help further validate our OP's earlier researchings.

Cheers,  JM

[Dundee]

Hi Akira,

Where does this information come from and was it transcribed from the original information from the transportation/immigration register?

Cheers
Akira

The immigration details for the WATSON family are from the family's entitlement certificates.  These are digitised on Ancestry and are the source of the FamilySearch card indexes.  The original handwriting is atrocious.  These records and images are free to search on Ancestry this weekend.

I know it is William BROWN that you are chasing, but just going back to the WATSONs for a moment...

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCJ-SS4

William George BROWN, born 17 May 1843, baptised at St Lawrence (likely the temporary building for Christ Church St Lawrence) on 1 Nov 1843.  His parents recorded as William BROWN and Matilda WATSON.

Akira, do you have that document?  If so, what occupation did the Rev record for William please?

Cheers,  JM (I have ummmm..... loads of info on various BROWN families in NSW long before the Gold Rushes)....

Hi JM

William's Occupation was Painter and Matilda's was Pauper in 'benevolent asylum'

Extract from the baptism

The information you have is correct for the marriage, he was born May 1843 and then Baptised in Nov 1843

Cheers
Akira

How on earth did Matilda end up as a pauper in the Benevolent Asylum?

These newspaper notices appear to be her family (ie. the family that arrived on the 'Susan')....

MARRIAGES 1856

By special license, by the Rev. Dr. Lang, on Thursday, the 3rd instant, Mr. John Alfred Williams, commission agent, Charlotte- place, Sydney, a native of Edinburgh, in Scotland, to Sarah Anne, youngest daughter of the Rev. John Watson, formerly of the county of Tyrone, Ireland.   

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/60250321

MARRIAGE 1860

On the 25th instant, by the Rev. W. McKee, at the residence of Alderman Watson, Mr. David Scotland, late of Clarence Town, to Rebecca, sixth daughter of the Rev. John Watson.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/60500826

DEATHS 1862

WATSON—At 177, Cumberland-street, on Saturday, the 9th August, at the residence of R. and S. Watson, Margaret, the beloved wife of the Rev. John Watson, aged 77 years. (This would be her sons Robert and Samuel)

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/60479520

DEATH 1870

On the 15th instant, at the residence of his son Robert, 105, Prince-street, Rev. JOHN WATSON, officiating minister for about thirty years of the congregations of Ballinahatty and Gillygooly, parish of Drumragh, county Tyrone, Ireland, aged 97 years.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13210172

THE FRIENDS of Messrs. ROBERT and SAMUEL WATSON are respectfully invited to attend the  Funeral of their late departed FATHER, the Rev. John Watson ; to move from 105, Prince-street, THIS AFTERNOON, at 3 o'clock.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13210181

FUNERAL 1893

THE FUNERAL of the late ROBERT WATSON will move from his residence, 115 Princes-street,   Church-hill, THIS (Monday) AFTERNOON, at 1.15, for the Presbyterian Cemetery, Necropolis.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13923458

Alderman Robert WATSON
http://www.sydneyaldermen.com.au/alderman/robert-watson/

Also this notice posted earlier by Giblet which links Mary Jane WATSON/McELDOWNIE to Matilda BROWN.

SMH
Monday 16 November 1874

BROWN.—November 14, at the residence of his aunt, Mrs.McEldownie, Pitt-street South, John Brown, the second and beloved son of William and Matilda Brown, of East Dixon-street, aged 28 years.

So it seems that father John was a Church of Scotland minister in Ireland.  I will add here that I think the ages of John and Margaret on the immigration record are probably fabricated as they would otherwise have been too old to qualify for assistance.  John's approx year of birth on immigration was 1790 and at death 1773.  Margaret's was 1793 on arrival and 1785 at death.  You would need to find surviving records in Ireland to confirm what is correct.

John WATSON was ordained in 1807 so I think the earlier date of birth is more likely.  You might find these interesting, John is mentioned in both:

200 years celebration
http://www.trinitypresbyterianchurchomagh.co.uk/trinitynews_issue39.pdf

Page 24
A talk on the history of the Gillygooley church by Andrew SCOTT
http://www.trinitypresbyterianchurchomagh.co.uk/trinitynews_issue40.pdf

The 'Susan' left England in December 1838 so the family would not have been in Ireland when the church lost its roof in 'the big wind'.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31723089
("Upwards of 200 lives were lost in Ireland alone by the hurricane.")

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108038604

Continued in next post because this is getting way too long.

Debra 

[Dundee]

So, given the dates of the birth and baptism of Matilda's first son William George and the marriage shortly after (Nov or Dec), I wonder if she was estranged from her family during the pregnancy and was it a shotgun wedding? 

This resource online does not cover those earlier years:

http://www.sydneybenevolentasylum.com/index.php?page=what-was-the-sydney-benevolent-asylum

However the earlier records can be accessed but are not indexed.  This shouldn't be a problem as you have a likely date range.  It would be worthwhile following this up because you never know what little gems of information these records contain and they might mention William.

http://www.sydneybenevolentasylum.com/index.php?page=records-of-the-benevolent-asylum

JM might be able to advise you further on this as I haven't used any of these records so don't know what they are likely to contain.

Debra 

[Akira01000]

Hi Debra,

Wow, that is amazing work never knew that the latter suggested of estrangement or shame to the family on two counts (possible)

1) william being a possible ex convict and the associated shame of this at the time?

2) matilda being with child prior to being married?

The records provided and sourced from the susan (the chicken scratch) indicate John Watson was a Farmer and not a Minister, wouldnt this have been indicated?

On the records for the Susan?

What you have provided is the justification is it then possible, to assume that with the supporting evidence, there is also two Rev John Watson's in Australia?

In 1897 there was an article which a Rev John Watson (Possibly John Watson Jnr) was guilty of heresy in WA?

Cheers
Akira

P.S. Again amazing work!!