Author Topic: Carson - Belfast - Catholic?  (Read 3382 times)

Offline KitCarson

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Carson - Belfast - Catholic?
« on: Saturday 03 May 14 14:46 BST (UK) »
Does anyone have access to Belfast Catholic records showing the surname CARSON?  I ask because, as far as I can see, neither the 1901 nor the 1911 Census of Ireland show ANY Carson's as being Catholic!

I have my GGF James Carson (b. circa 1859) who says on the 1911 English Census that he was born in 'Belfast'.  He married Ellen Bowland, nee Ronan (RC from Wexford, Ireland) in Liverpool on 1 November 1886.  They married at Our Lady of Reconciliation, Eldan Street, which was RC.

I'm not convinced James was RC, but can find no birth/baptismal record to prove that.  If he wasn't RC, what would he have needed to do to allow him to be married in a RC Church?  Would there be a record of this?

I would very much appreciate your help with records or knowledge of RC practices.

Kit
Rimmer/Appleton/Ashcroft: St Helens, Lancs // Cul(le)y:St Helens & Little Bolton // Stott: Huyton Quarry & Sutton, Lancs
Carson:Belfast? & St Helens // Kelly:Mullingar, West Meath? & St Helens // Ronan: Ferns, Wexford & St Helens // Daley:Oranmore & Athenry, Co Galway //
Cunningham: Heworth, Gateshead & Widnes & St Helens, originating Ireland
Edgar: Bellie, Moray // Anderson: Selkirk // Rutherford: Hobkirk, Roxburghshire //
Stewart: Angus // Watson: Moray & Jamaica // Watt: Cairnie

Offline GallowayLass

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Re: Carson - Belfast - Catholic?
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 03 May 14 15:24 BST (UK) »
I'm a bit lost here. The only James Carson in Lancashire 1911 that I can find has a wife Mary and children Robert, James Joseph and Miles. Address 45 Appleton Street, St. Helen's. Is this the census entry you have?

Offline GallowayLass

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Re: Carson - Belfast - Catholic?
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 03 May 14 15:53 BST (UK) »
What's his father's name and occupation given on the marriage certificate?

Offline GallowayLass

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Re: Carson - Belfast - Catholic?
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 03 May 14 16:43 BST (UK) »
There are family trees on ancestry which say that Mary Ronan married John Bowland in 1882 at St. Alban's Roman Catholic church. He died then following year, the couple having had one child Lucy born , registered with the surname Boland. Mary Bowland then married James Carson in 1886 at Our Lady of Reconciliation Eidan St.

Both marriages are recorded in UKBMD as Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended. If you know Mary Ronan was Roman Catholic, then this indicates that both John Bowland and James Carson were not.

If a non-Roman Catholic is to marry in a Roman Catholic church according to the full rites of the Roman Catholic church that person has to undertake instruction and become a member of the church. Should one party not wish to convert, a marriage ceremony can take place in the church but it is foreshortened from the full wedding mass. Normally, a clergyman/woman from the other denomination is also present; at least this is so in the last 30 years. My husband, who is Church of Scotand, married a Roman Catholic girl in her church. What a lot of folk haven't figured out is that no matter where a wedding takes place, the only actual legal part is the registration of the event. My guess is that if you look at the two certificates for Mary Ronan's marriages you find one of the following happened or something along those lines;
1. A registrar was present and conducted part of the ceremony.
2. The actual marriage was in a Register Office or some other place and what took place in the two churches were services of blessing.

Have you been to see the actual church registers for these events?


Offline GallowayLass

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Re: Carson - Belfast - Catholic?
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 03 May 14 17:00 BST (UK) »
Another thing that occurred to me after I posted is the denomination of any children of the marriage for those persons who do not convert, particularly in the case of men. It was expected that the person would agree that any children would be brought up in the Catholic church or if agreement could not be reached, then it was expected that girls would be brought up Catholic and boys would be Established Church or whatever denomination the other person was. As things are less regimented now, this may no longer be the case. Hopefully someone with more recent knowledge can help you. My experience is from my husband and from people of my own age (in our 50's) where there were "mixed" marriages and the boys were Church of Scotland and the girls Catholic. Sometimes the girls went to an RC primary school but for secondary education we all went the same state school. There were only two RC secondary schools in the whole area (three small counties) and up to the 1980's, they were both fee-paying. I must also say that I am from an area where sectarianism was not a major issue. My husband's upbringing was totally the opposite.

Offline GallowayLass

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Re: Carson - Belfast - Catholic?
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 03 May 14 17:20 BST (UK) »
In the 1901 census, Lucy Boland in living with her Ronan grandparents at household number 4 in Ballyandrew (Tombrack, Wexford). She and the rest of the household are Roman Catholic.

There is also another Lucy Boland who is the baby of James and Catherine Boland, residents of a house 2 in Pallis Lower (Limerick, Wexford). Maybe James is connected to Mary Ronan's deceased first husband John?

In 1911 census Lucy is still with her grandmother's household. Grandfather presumably passed away.They are residents of house 2 in Ballyandrew (Tombrack, Wexford). Head of the household is now her Uncle Myles.

Offline GallowayLass

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Re: Carson - Belfast - Catholic?
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 03 May 14 17:46 BST (UK) »
I've been loking for marriages for the Carson children. I've found 3 and they are all Register Office or Registrar Attended so you definitely have mixed denominations continuing in the family.

The first female marriage I find in a Church of England was 1940. Alice M Carson, the eldest daughter of James Joseph who married William Brownbill in Holy Trinity, Parr Mount, St Helen's.

Offline KitCarson

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Re: Carson - Belfast - Catholic?
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 04 May 14 11:27 BST (UK) »
Hi Galloway Lass, thanks so much for responding.  I couldn't reply yesterday as Roots seemed to be down for most of the evening.

Yes, it is the same James and Mary you have found and also the tree on Ancestry.  James states on his marriage certificate that his father is/was a Coachman.

The surviving children were all married at RC Churches.  Robert and James Joseph (my GF) at St Mary, Lowe House and Myles at St Joseph's, Peasley Cross.  I know that after the 1886 marriage to my knowledge, the majority of my Carson's are Catholic and that Mary Bowland (nee Ronan) definitely was.  I just don't know about James from Belfast.

I'm surprised to find that Aunty Alice was married at Holy Trinity, Parr Mount and I'll ask her sister (the last surviving of that generation) about it later today.

Thanks for the information on what was expected when a non catholic decided to marry into the faith.  I'm going away now to digest.

The 1886 marriage register is available to view on Ancestry, which is a bonus.

Kit



Rimmer/Appleton/Ashcroft: St Helens, Lancs // Cul(le)y:St Helens & Little Bolton // Stott: Huyton Quarry & Sutton, Lancs
Carson:Belfast? & St Helens // Kelly:Mullingar, West Meath? & St Helens // Ronan: Ferns, Wexford & St Helens // Daley:Oranmore & Athenry, Co Galway //
Cunningham: Heworth, Gateshead & Widnes & St Helens, originating Ireland
Edgar: Bellie, Moray // Anderson: Selkirk // Rutherford: Hobkirk, Roxburghshire //
Stewart: Angus // Watson: Moray & Jamaica // Watt: Cairnie

Offline GallowayLass

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Re: Carson - Belfast - Catholic?
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 04 May 14 13:41 BST (UK) »
The 1886 marriage register is available to view on Ancestry, which is a bonus.

I can see the marriage index on Ancestry but I can't see an image of the actual certificate or banns.

What was James's father's first name and did James have any sister or brothers?