Author Topic: J-M241 / J2b2 in England  (Read 11338 times)

Offline SMJ

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Re: J-M241 / J2b2 in England
« Reply #18 on: Thursday 30 May 24 01:01 BST (UK) »
It's possible that there may be a little truth in the Legionary migration to Britain in the Roman era.

A recent dig in York found remains of a person who had J2 L228 Y-DNA establishing that J2 was present during the Roman period in Britain. It is likely that they spent their childhood in a dry, arid area, possibly N Africa or Egypt, before being buried in Yorkshire. In a modern context this DNA is found in the Caucasus, Balkans and Italy. The dig was at Driffield Terrace in York and this particular sample is referred to as 3DRIF-26. More info at https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fncomms10326/MediaObjects/41467_2016_BFncomms10326_MOESM417_ESM.pdf read Supplementary Note 2 paragraph 1.3. The abstract is at https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326#MOESM417

I'm J2-L26 (J2a1) and my family seem to have been in the Shropshire/Denbighshire/Flintshire area as far as I can tell for several centuries, though there are very few (if any) Jones surnames on FTDNA with J2a1, the Montgomery surname is much more common. Probably an NPE or surname change I think.
Paternal:
Jones (Shropshire & Flintshire Wales)
Wilding (Shropshire)
Davies (Shropshire)
Thomas (Denbighshire Wales)
Williams (Shropshire)
Roberts (Denbighshire Wales)
Oare (Shropshire)
Everall (Shropshire)

Maternal:
Black (Leicestershire)
Wilkins (Leicestershire)
Randall/Randle (Warwickshire & Leicestershire)
Dyer (Warwickshire & Leicestershire)
Whitaker (Leicestershire)
Toplis (Derbyshire & Leicestershire)
Pike (Leicestershire)
Sheldon (Leicestershire)

Offline Tricia_2

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Re: J-M241 / J2b2 in England
« Reply #19 on: Thursday 30 May 24 03:52 BST (UK) »
A recent dig in York found remains of a person who had J2 L228 Y-DNA establishing that J2 was present during the Roman period in Britain.

Very interesting! Thank you very much for that information.

I'm J2-L26 (J2a1) and my family seem to have been in the Shropshire/Denbighshire/Flintshire area as far as I can tell for several centuries, though there are very few (if any) Jones surnames on FTDNA with J2a1, the Montgomery surname is much more common. Probably an NPE or surname change I think.

Do you think that this could be a Welsh patronymic thing?
This was suggested to me, regarding my late brother's Big Y-DNA matches.
Worcs / Glos: Neal Neale Jeynes Jeens Geans Harris Roper Ropier Colley Dyer Heeks Bayzand Hampton Bishop Cole Elton Littlehales McGowan
Glamorgam: Hampton Thornton Svombo Swambo Swanbo Keefe O Keefe Shanahan Shannon Doyle Maldoon Muldoon Davies Llewellyn Jones
Birmingham: Neale Sarjant Cole Hiley Berridge Tirebuck

Offline SMJ

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Re: J-M241 / J2b2 in England
« Reply #20 on: Friday 31 May 24 00:29 BST (UK) »
@Tricia_2 Welsh Patronymic naming thing - yes, possible.

The Romans obviously travelled through France/Gaul on their way to Britain so it is likely there is traces of J2 DNA to be found in some of the Norman entourage that came here at the time of William I.

Imagine later Normans settling in the Welsh Marches townships such as Montgomery (named after Roger de Montgomery - founder of Shrewsbury Abbey). After a few years some may adopt the patronymic naming customs of Welsh locals, so a son of John (Ioan) becomes ap Ioan then later Jones.

Others may travel and be called by a locative name of their origin, so a lowly Henry who happens to come from Montgomery becomes known as Henry of Montgomery or Henry de Montgomery and finally Henry Montgomery - although there may be no direct relationship to Earl Roger or the Norman area of Montgomerie in France.

It's one area where DNA wins because the DNA stays constant and immutable, surnames can and do change - for that reason I am reasonably fluid if the DNA matches but the surname doesn't. However I don't get many matches in the UK with J2-L26.

The problem with patronymic names is that the ability to trace back the generations disappears after two generations unless you have a solid paperwork trail. You need a land owning farmer in the family with the appropriate title deeds and family history - something I lack.

Best of luck, pob lwc.

Paternal:
Jones (Shropshire & Flintshire Wales)
Wilding (Shropshire)
Davies (Shropshire)
Thomas (Denbighshire Wales)
Williams (Shropshire)
Roberts (Denbighshire Wales)
Oare (Shropshire)
Everall (Shropshire)

Maternal:
Black (Leicestershire)
Wilkins (Leicestershire)
Randall/Randle (Warwickshire & Leicestershire)
Dyer (Warwickshire & Leicestershire)
Whitaker (Leicestershire)
Toplis (Derbyshire & Leicestershire)
Pike (Leicestershire)
Sheldon (Leicestershire)