Do you recognise these historic houses?

[J Dickens]

I believe the photos are from the mid 1880's.
The fact that John's child was born in Richmond VIC in 1884 and the Hawthorn brick resemblance, I might start looking for info on Melbourne suburb historic houses.

John

[Ruskie]

John Spence's children were born in the following places/years which may give a clue to the proximity of house and garden

1880 - Balmain NSW
1883 - Bright VIC
1884 - Richmond VIC
1886 - Bailieston VIC
1887 - Liverpool NSW
1889 - Armidale NSW
1891 - Queensland
1895 - Coolah NSW
1897 - Cobar NSW
1898 - Cobar NSW
1903 - Warren NSW

I hope these place names might help someone recognize the houses.

I think a starting point of Hawthorn is a good idea.

It just struck me that the second photo was taken from higher than ground level - from a building across the road perhaps?

[Neil Todd]

The National Trust has photo's of all the Historic Homes in both Sydney and Melbourne so a possible starting point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Trust_properties_in_Australia

Also for Vic
http://www.nationaltrust.org.au/vic/Home

Someone at Nat Trust would be interested in your photo's particularly as they portray the home prior to final setup.

The Araucaria heterophylla or "Norfolk Island Pine" in the photo may still be growing as their lifespan is extremely long

Neil

[ennael]

Hi,
 For the pic with the Norfolk Island Pine I think it eliminates
Queensland (inland)
Coolah NSW
Cobar NSW
Warren NSW

Leanne

[majm]

Hi there,

Some thoughts:

   What dates of birth for the babies born  1886 at Bailieston Victoria and 1887 Liverpool NSW, perhaps John was not around for these births?

http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=40&new=1

John SPENCE 1886-7 was in Parramatta district and having troubles with the police.  Two sentences, firstly in Parramatta Gaol for six months, then Darlinghurst Gaol with Hard Labour 18 months, concurrent with former sentence. (So 18 months ‘all up’)

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28348009 SMH 7 May 1887

Darlinghurst Admissions
No. 3871  John SPENCE, born United States of America, 1853, arrived in the colony (of NSW) on the ship ‘Drover’ (no year stated).  Trade or occupation previous to conviction GARDENER,  C of E, can read and write,  6ft 1 inch, 168 lbs, Brown hair, Brown eyes, (bushy moustache in photo)
Tried Parramatta QS on 6 May 1887, False Pretences, 18 months HL

   Some earlier threads   
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=508057.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=607841.0


   Some thoughts about the two photos

At State Records NSW website, Photo Investigator, ENTER “Hill End” and find the photos of the Hill End Court House, and look to the right of that to the  Iron roofed house.   (4346_a020_a020000030.jpg) and then keep looking for the Hill End Post Office.   Last time I checked, the Hill End Post Office was still standing.  I am fairly certain that there were mature Norfolk Island Pines standing at Hill End when I was last in that district (several years ago).   I am not sure when they were planted.
  http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/hill-end-historic-site/village-walking-track/walking

Looking at the first house (two men standing outside one corner of the building) it is likely to be two rooms wide, with the main entrance directly in front of the front steps, and opening up into a hallway.   The side door room is accessed via the same front steps and the length of the main building is about the same as the width, so two rooms deep too.  So, to me, it is not actually a wealthy pastoralist’s homestead.   Also, neither of the chaps standing on that corner seem to me to be over 6ft tall….   To me they are standing on the public footpath outside the building, which is what has prompted me to look at the public buildings at Hill End.   Of course, it is likely that I am way off track.  But perhaps the SRNSW Photo Investigator link may be of help as they have tens of thousands of photographs available for viewing online.   I am suggesting you look at Hill End to find good examples of the 1880s era in that part of NSW, it was a long way from Coolah to Hill End in that pre motor car era.   I have no understanding of Victoria in that era.     Anyways, here’s the link, and may I suggest you just type in the township names and scroll through the photos that turn up.   Hill End is basically a National Trust Site

http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/asp/photosearch/

Cheers,  JM

[Ruskie]

Agree that first house is not huge, but even the wealthy in those times would have lived more modestly than we do today. I still think it could comprise two reception rooms and three or four bedrooms A solid house, interesting dormer window and presumably a kitchen to the back. Ironwork may have been an expensive decorative addition.

Second house obviously a lot larger with bay windows and many chimneys so presumably a wealthier owner than first house. A bit of fancy brick/stonework too.

Possible that ironwork was removed or covered over/ verandahs filled in to gain extra rooms so if either exist today may not be recognizable. I hate it when that happens!
 

[cocksie]

Am from Victoria with a bit of knowledge about architecture ....
The first house is unusual with the ironwork balustrading (as opposed to the fretwork) - reasonably uncommon in Victoria.  A balustrade like this almost suggests it is being used in lieu of a fence.... Ie possibly on a Main Street near shops or, perhaps a building that has a public component. The verandah ironwork is extremely decorative, particularly the posts (from what I can see in the photo).  My gut feeling is that this house is/was not in Victoria.

The second house has brickwork that was common (often still is underneath the paint these days) in Victoria.  It ain't no slum single storey, single fronted terrace house though .... But neither is it a house of an extremely wealthy person ... Well off, but not upper, upper class.

I'll have a further dig around for a narrower parameter of dates for both these buildings
Cocksie

[Ruskie]

You make some good observations Cocksie.

It got me wondering about the verandah supports in the first photo. They are unusual. Most posts will be similar to those in the second photo (single posts or two singles close together) rather than flat ornate ironwork.

I looked through several books which I have on Australian Houses and could only find one which looked anything remotely like this, however the house (which is two storied) was built in the 1830s in NSW and apparently the ironwork is of a later date, so no help at all really.

Just confirming the unusual nature of this style. I thought I had seen similar cannot recall whereabouts.

[cocksie]

The hawthorn brick house has to be constructed in era 1875-1890. Gut feeling is still Victoria.

The other house with the filigree verandah posts, fretwork and balustrade is stumping me.  The window proportions indicate an era, the iron lacework - another era. But it is the "dormer" window which is really throwing me.  I wonder .... Was original house, say 1840s with later additions of verandah, filigree ironwork and perhaps the "dormer"? Which would possibly push the date of the photo out until mid to late 1880s-early 90s? I can't find anything remotely similar with the "dormer" currently on any victorian database.
Cocksie