Author Topic: Name Change: Douglas to Drysdale  (Read 9602 times)

Offline Ronda231

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Re: Name Change: Douglas to Drysdale
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 06 January 24 19:16 GMT (UK) »
Hi Robert

Your hypothetical case would make some sense.

Regarding the Douglases charging a rental fee to the Johnstons, that would have been the nice way of doing things but Scotland in that period was a bit like the American Wild West of the 1800s.

Some context for the Annandale clan feuds can be found in a publication about the Clan Dinwiddie here:

https://electricscotland.com/webclans/dtog/dinwiddie4.html

In brief, all of the Douglas lands were confiscated by the Crown sometime within the period 1455-1484 and according to Dinwiddie at around the year 1500:

".......The great estates of the last of the Black Douglases had been confiscated and during his exile in England they had been divided by royal grants among the king's favourites. Many of the Douglas lands were in Annandale and some of these had been given to the Laird Carlyle by royal Charters..........., there was no real single authority there to oversee the wild and turbulent Lairds and Chiefs, who grasped at whatever they could seize and held it by their strong hand despite royal parchments ..... So it was, that the Laird of Johnstoun had taken forcible possession of certain of the forfeited lands of the Douglas in Annandale......."

Regards



Offline Ronda231

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Re: Name Change: Douglas to Drysdale
« Reply #28 on: Friday 22 March 24 18:20 GMT (UK) »
I recently came across an old article, published in the Dollar Magazine in 1909*, which gives a slightly different viewpoint on the 1503 Douglas/Drysdale story and suggests that Lammonbie Mill on the Dryfe, may be the scene where the drama played out:



*The Dollar Magazine March, 1909 (Vol. viii., No. 29).

I've also enclosed the full text of this article as a rtf file

Regards

Offline Ronda231

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Re: Name Change: Douglas to Drysdale
« Reply #29 on: Monday 03 June 24 01:40 BST (UK) »
An addendum to the post above;

  -  while it has not been possible to find out whether Lammonbie Mill was the actual Mill of the 1503 Douglas-Drysdale ‘brothers’ story, or even whether this mill was in existence some 500 years ago, it has been possible to do some background checks on Mr Kerr, the narrator of the above story from 1909.

Mr Kerr was christened ‘John Rogerson Kerr’ when born on 25th May 1849 in Dryfesdale, Dumfriesshire and in 1874 he married Annie Bell (of Wamphray) in Tundergarth but they had no children.
In the 1901 Scottish Census, Mr and Mrs Kerr were recorded as residents of Carstairs in Lanarkshire, where he was employed by the Railway company as a “Permanent way Superintendent”.

In the 1911 Scottish Census at Dryfesdale, Mr and Mrs Kerr, 62 and 65 years old respectively, were then retired and living in Lockerbie, Mr Kerr also reported his occupation as “Retired Superintendent of Way, Engineering Department, Caledonian Railway Co.”
Mr Kerr died in 1918 and photographs of his family memorial, in Dryfesdale Cemetery, may be seen here:

 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/238465400/john-rogerson-kerr

Mr Kerr’s Grandfather, Charles Kerr, was indeed born in 1777, in Dryfesdale, but it has not been possible to find out whether he was a ‘Baron officer’ to Mr Johnstone-Douglas of Lockerbie. Nevertheless, Mr Kerr’s Grandmother on his mother’s side was called Nicholes Johnston and his Great Grandmother was called Rachel Johnston - so the family connections were there -  there is no real reason to doubt Mr Kerr’s information about his Grandfather’s employment on the Johnston-Douglas estate .

Charles Kerr died in 1859, so he did have some opportunities to speak to Mr Kerr, his Grandson (until he was 10 years old) his gravestone is in Applegarth & Sibbaldbie Churchyard, Dumfriesshire and the memorial inscription reads as follows:

In Memory of
James KERR in Lockerby Mill [Hill], 4th August 1806 aged 80 years
Also Raghall [Rachel] JOHNSTON, his spouse, who died 12th January 1802 aged 66 years
Also James KERR, son of Charles KERR in Lockerby, who died 23rd February 1804 aged 7 months
Also Jannet KERR, daughter of said James KERR, who died 11th July 1819 aged 52 years
Also James KERR, son of the said Charles KERR, who died February 3rd 1829 aged 23 years
Erected by Charles KERR, son above James KERR and Rachel JOHNSTON

[Reverse of stone]
In Memory of
Helen WILLIAMSON, spouse of Charles KERR, Lockerby, who died 2nd January 1837 aged 60
Also above Charles KERR, who died 22nd August 1859 aged 82 years
Also William KERR, their son, who died at New York 19th November 1835 aged 36 years

From this inscription we can see that Mr Kerr’s Great Grandfather was called James Kerr and that, as advised by Mr Kerr, he resided in Lockerby Hill [farm].

It has not been possible to find any relevant information about Mr Kerr’s Great Great Grandfather and Lammonbie Farm.

Regards

Offline Ronda231

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Re: Name Change: Douglas to Drysdale
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 14 January 25 19:27 GMT (UK) »


Offline Ronda231

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Re: Name Change: Douglas to Drysdale
« Reply #31 on: Thursday 16 January 25 13:58 GMT (UK) »
The principal controversy around the genesis of the name 'Drysdale' is the so called '1503 document', in which it is claimed that the very first Drysdales were in fact Douglases who changed their names to Drysdale to avoid capture by the King - after slaying members of the Johnston Clan - while moving to Dollar in Clackmannanshire in 1503.

This 1503 tenet is obviously flawed in some respects due to:

- the existence of a significant number of people called Drysdale before 1503,
- the inconsistencies within the document itself,
- the current lack of corroborating evidence.

However there may still be some truth to the outline of the 1503 story and this would imply that there were at least two separate origins for the Drysdale family name:
 
- Drysdales descended from De Bois of Dryfesdale (and possibly Bruce - from the 1300s onwards - Scotland and England)
- Drysdales who were really Douglases (from 1503 onwards in Dollar, Clackmannanshire)

This is discussed with some background material on the Douglas Archives website here:

https://douglashistory.ning.com/group/drysdale-a-douglas-sept/forum/topics/the-origins-of-the-surname-drysdale?xg_source=activity

See also the image below which comes from the publication "An inquiry concerning the Boss family and the name Boss":

https://archive.org/details/inquiryconcernin01boss/page/n3/mode/2up

Best regards


Offline Ronda231

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Re: Name Change: Douglas to Drysdale
« Reply #32 on: Thursday 30 January 25 01:34 GMT (UK) »
Hugh, Son of Ingebald - Hugh of Dryfesdale - was possibly the first to take up the Drysdale surname in the 12th century.

His father Ingebald, built a Castle in Applegarth in the 1100s, see image below:

See also the reference below to a DGNHAS article on the possible existence of a monastery at Applegarth and which talks about Ingebald, his son Hugh and the size of the grant of Annandale lands from Robert de Brus:

Ref: Dumfriesshire & Galloway Natural History & Antiquarian Society Transactions 1956-1957
https://dgnhas.org.uk/sites/default/files/transactions/3035.pdf#page=12

Best regards


Offline Ronda231

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Re: Name Change: Douglas to Drysdale
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 04 February 25 01:45 GMT (UK) »
A tentative summary document of the earliest people found with Drysdale surnames in medieval times, with an attempt to link them when appropriate.

Why tentative?

Because medieval records are very sparse and this is the best that I've been able to cobble together with the info I've found.

See image and attached pdf,

Best regards


Offline Ronda231

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Re: Name Change: Douglas to Drysdale
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 11 February 25 16:59 GMT (UK) »
In my previous post dated 16th January 2025 I mentioned the possibility that there could be two
separate and distinct origins for the name Drysdale - one from 'de Bois' of Drysdale (say - but more likely from the descendents of Hugh son of Ingebald) and the other where we have Drysdales who were really Douglases (from 1503 onwards in Dollar, Clackmannanshire).

I have recently come across an excellent reference book, "History of Dollar" by Bruce Baillie, 1998. This publication gives details of some the families living in Dollar in the year 1605 who were "Kindly tenants" and then feuars to the Argyll family in Castle Campbell in Dollar: https://archive.org/details/historyofdollar0000bail/page/10/mode/2up

The book reveals that there were five distinct Drysdale families living in Dollar at that time and it appears that apart from being long term fuears, one of them was also an owner of land in the  Haugh of Dollar, which corresponds with the 1503 story.

Best regards 


Offline Ronda231

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Re: Name Change: Douglas to Drysdale
« Reply #35 on: Wednesday 19 February 25 17:50 GMT (UK) »
Some concluding remarks from me on the 'Drysdales of Dollar' and the '1503 Douglas Drysdale story'  see image of sheet 1 below and attached 3 page pdf.

Best regards

PS Regardless of what is discussed below, no evidence was found that would definitively negate the presumption that the Drysdales of Dollar were originally Douglases.