Help needed to get to the bottom of a family scandal?

[Judy Pengilly]

I'm fairly convinced of everything up until 1891, that Frederick is Frederick Cardell Pengilly died  1st Feb1902 aged 41 so that fits, his wife Elizabeth Jane died in 1952 aged 85.  The confusion comes in in this family where all the men and women come to that seem to have the same names aghhhhhhhh!!!!!! and its obviously catching because my husband Steven Cardell Pengilly and guess what my son Steven Cardell Pengilly Guess the family just lacks imagination.

The mexican link so far means nothing to me but believe me "Gwennap" is 3 shops and a very famous religious PIT!, (made famous by John Wesley as a preaching place). so there has to be some relationship.

[Judy Pengilly]

Aaaaaggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!  Something just made me think about the TITANIC link.  This is from the Titanic website:Pengelly (Pengilly) Family Information
Frederick (Fred) William Pengelly was born in the parish of Calstock, East Cornwall in early 1893 whilst his father was working in the area as a mining engineer.

Fred’s father, Frederick William Cardell Pengilly (sic) was born in 1861 in the village of Chacewater close to the intensive mining district of Gwennap near Redruth, Cornwall. He was the son of Charles Pengilly an arsenic manufacturer, arsenic being mined on a large scale in Cornwall at that time.

The 1891 census shows Fred’s father living and working at Gwennap. Described in the census as an assayer, his job would have involved the checking of the quality of metal, e.g. tin, copper or arsenic contained in the mined ore. Towards the end of that year he married at Gwennap to Elizabeth Jane (maiden surname not known).

Shortly following their marriage the couple moved to East Cornwall and settled at Calstock. It was here that their son, Frederick William Pengelly was born in early 1893.

Within a fairly short time the family left Calstock and returned westward to St Day, a village close by the mining district of Gwennap. It was here in the summer of 1899 that their second child, a daughter, Elizabeth Myra Pengelly was born.

The March 1901 census for their home at Buckingham Place has Frederick Pengilly (40), Elizabeth (32), Fred ( and Elizabeth (1). Within 12 months Frederick Pengilly had died, he was buried in the St Day churchyard in February 1902.

It was commonplace for children as young as 9 or 10 to be employed at the mines so it can be assumed that Fred started work at about the time of his father’s death.

What happened immediately following his father’s death has not been established but it is known that by 1911/12 he had returned to the Calstock district of East Cornwall and was living in the small hamlet of Chilsworthy. It was whilst working in the mines there that he made the acquaintance of William Jeffery Ware of nearby Gunnislake who was to be his travelling companion on Titanic.

On 18 April 1912 the Western Morning News newspaper reported that Fred’s mother was living in Gunnislake and that she had remarried to a Mr G Reynolds who was away working in America. (This second marriage has yet to be substantiated). It is probable he was a miner and that Fred’s intention in travelling to America was to have met up with him there.

In early April 1912 Fred Pengelly and William Ware booked their Atlantic crossing with local White Star agent, Jeremiah Yeolton of Newbridge Hill, Gunnislake. They were due to travel on another steamer but as a result of the coal strikes had their passage transferred to Titanic. Their ultimate destination was to have been the copper mines of Butte, Montana.

They boarded at Southampton and travelled second class, their tickets each costing £10 10s. Neither survived the sinking and their bodies were not amongst those later recovered from the sea. Fred was barely 19 years old.

There is no mention of Fred in the Mansion House Relief Fund records which indicates that his mother neither claimed, nor automatically received any monetary assistance from the fund.

At some date following 1912 Fred’s mother left Greenhill, Gunnislake and settled at Redruth where she died aged 83 in 1953. She was buried with her husband at St Day churchyard where a gravestone marks their grave. There is apparently no memorial on it to their son Fred.

The following is taken from the Probate Index (note spelling of surnames)

PENGILLY Frederick William Cardell of Buckingham-place St Day Gwennap Cornwall mining-engineer died 1 February 1902 Probate Bodmin 1 March to Elizabeth Jane Pengilly widow. Effects £670

PENGILLY Elizabeth Jane of Somerleigh Gew-terrace East End Redruth Cornwall widow died 17 April 1953 Probate Bodmin 21 May to Elizabeth Myra Williams (married woman). Effects £510 9s 10d

Now it says he travelled with a freind William Ware have a look again at the 1930  Arizona Census about 15 names above my Grandad?

AAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Sorry everyone but I'm sure you can see how frustrating this really is.

Judy

[ec]

As a suggestion, you might want to look further at this chap on the Titanic Site

Mr Henry Forbes Julian

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/biography.php/julian_henry_forbes_173.html

who also died on the Titanic

He was married to Hester Pengelly, youngest daughter of William and Lydia Pengelly of Torquay.  Geologists.

You could also try contacting Steve Coombes the contributor to the Titanic site - he seems to have done profiles of many of the passengers.

EC

[ec]

You might also want to look at this article whish mentions more Pengellys involved.

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/item.php/2212.html

I must admit I am struggling a bit with this - I am not sure why you believe Frederick Cardell Pengelly and Frederick William Pengelly could be/are the same person - could it just be the the Titanic researcher has got the two muddled?

[Chattykathy]

ec, I only read your thread through once so SURE I did not pick up all your details so maybe this is irrelevant and reinventing the wheel


1920 Miami,  Gila Co., AZ
Fred Pengelly 26 <1894> married b. Eng   M/F: Eng  Mill Operator @ Copper Mines
Wife Blanche 19 <1901> married  b. Eng    M/F: Eng

1930 Globe Gila Co., AZ
Elizabeth Pengelly b. 1880 in England

kathy

[Judy Pengilly]

EC that must be the reason! must'nt it!!!!

but why did that Frederick Pengilly and my Frederick Pengilly travel with the same friend William Ware and purchase tickets, believe me Calstock is not a very big place.  I do believe a researcher has made a mistake with the names but why William Ware as well.  I am really very new to this and this is only the first week where I have decided to try do make sense of it all.  If my Frederick Pengilly (and William Ware) for that matter had perished on the TITANIC my family would not exist!!! but I believe the chances of 2 family's sharing so many names to be more than a coincidence.  Did he (My Frederick Pengilly) knowingly or unknowingly allow his name to be used,  I truly dont know.

My interest is really trying to find where and when he married my Grandmother (I have a letter from him to his sister (Myra!!!!!) where he talks to her about getting divorced) and where on earth he disappeared to after 1930, there must be some other record of him after this date but I cannot find it anywhere.

Sorry for sharing and passing on my frustrations but surely people cannot disappear.........Unless they want to?

Kathy

The 1920 Blanche and Frederick are definitely them, they had 3 children, another Frederick B1920, Ester b1924, Gwendoline b1927 all registered in Miami Arizona.


Judy

[Judy Pengilly]

I hope you all dont mind but this is the first post I made yesterday on the beginners forum it might help.

Steve and Judy

Hi Pam, thank you so much for taking interest.  My husband's Grandfather has been a mystery we have thought about for years. 

That's definitely him on the Arizona Census in 1930, we have got him on the 1920, with wife, (Blanche (really Phillippa Mary Blanche Pengilly Nee Cole)) census, as well.  After their marital break up in or around 1930ish! she returned to Cornwall with their children (Frederick, Ester and Gwendoline) the son Frederick being Steve's (my husband's) dad.

Here's the real enigma.........Frederick, shall I start calling him Snr? Was born in Calstock, Cornwall in 1892.  Everything on that TITANIC website is him, no doubt!..... but it was not him! if it was, Steve would not exist!  I know Frederick Snr joined the Canadian Railway Troops, and served in WW1 (as indicated by the 1930 Census).

My thoughts on the fellow, Frederick Pengilly, that perished on the TITANIC are that: a.  Frederick Snr allowed a friend (possibly excluded from emigration) to use his identity (Frederick Snr was already in the US, he arrived on the "Philadelphia" in 1911 (Ellis Island records)).  b.  His identity was stolen? possibly for the same reason.   c. There was a different Frederick Pengilly, from the same town, with same parents names and the same grandparents names....... Highly unlikely!  Calstock is very small and the chances are minimal and not supported by the 1901 British Census.

A codicil to this Frederick Pengilly (TITANIC) is that his family never made any contact or claim to the White Star Line.... I think because the real Frederick Pengilly was not on board.

IT'S A MYSTERY!!!!!

Thanks again for taking an interest.  I am determined to unravel the family puzzle.

Judy and Steve Pengilly

[Chattykathy]

JUDY,  sorry for misaddressing you as ec before --  early here still and not enough coffee yet consumed.......

So you have them all in AZ in 1930, right?

So I guess the question is who is possibly on the Titanic?  Or that is maybe a name error or someone else?

kathy

[Chattykathy]

Judy,  forget my last post ---  question answered by your post sent in the meantime.   

Identity theft is a big leap tho the most interesting intriguing one!   

You are sure no one else with same/similar/missplelt name from the same area could have travelled on the Titanic?
If they died, maybe no family to file a claim even if they were legit!

When I searched "Pengilly"  I got a LOT of hits and a LOT of spelling variations.

kathy