WILSON Lancashire/MUNDY/Irish/RYAN Irish

[welsh lady]

Hiya dont think this is right family.John William Wilson in 1881 is living with his mother Elizabeth Wilson and Grandmother Margaret Mundy in Salford see previous posts
Best Wishes
Welsh lady

[rolnora]

And this is why John William's birth cert would be a good idea.
There is only as far as I can see one marriage and that's for a John Wilson to Elizabeth Kelly 1871 at St John's Church,
Looking at a copy of that marriage on Ancestry Manchester Marriages.
They married Sept 1871 think it was the 1st but it's hard to read.
Elizabeth Ann Kelly 18 father William Kelly occupation Tailor which apart from her using Kelly instead of Mundy as her surname fits the second marriage details that you have found previously.
 

[welsh lady]

Yes thats marriage found earlier and looks like the one I think fathers first names were wrong on marriage cert of John William Wilson .As we know mother is Elizabeth who was married to a Wilson then remarried Higson and John found on census with mother Elizabeth Mundy /Kelly.Birth cert needed to confirm father is John not Charles.
Welsh lady

[heywood]

Hello again,

The finds by rolnora look to offer another choice for John William.
Who did he marry?
Do you have definite evidence that his mother was Elizabeth - other than censuses?

Heywood

[heywood]

If you have John W in 1901 census, does his occupation tie in with 1891 and marriage certificate?

[Nivekdrawoh]

Thank you Heatherjuile thanksyes, the 1881 is the right family
This is the mystery (which seems to puzzle you all also) and has bedeviled me for years, the absent Charles Frederick Wilson B abt 1852 ish.

Where does my information come from someone asked ? It is thus.....

1861 census I have Margaret Mundy in Gorton, with Matthew Brien b 1840 son to head age 20 Ireland (can`t find her as records are scant)
Elizabeth Mundy daughter age 8 b Stockport 1853 (who wed Charles Frederick Wilson)
Joseph    Mundy son         age  1 B Gorton Lancs

THEN

I find on 1881 census Salford 30 Factory Lane.
Margaret Mundy Head Widow b Ireland.
Joseph Mundy son 21 dyer Salford (although it said b   Gorton in 1861)
Clara    Mundy Dau 17 spinner Salford
ELIZABETH (nee Mundy) Wilson MARRIED 28 cott spinner b1853 Stockport.   
Marg Ellen Grand daugh to head 8                                                             b1873 Salford           
John William Wilson Grand son to head 6                                                   b1875Salford

1891 Census Salford
Elizabeth (nee Mundy) age 38 WIDOW head Shopkeeper  b1853 (Salford but 1861 said Stockport)
Sarah Jane Wilson        "     8 dau                                  b1883 Salford
John William Wilson      "     16 Son Circular sawyer?        b 1875 Salford
Joseph Mndy Brother   "      32   Machine Maker               b1859  Salford

THE MYSTERY
I find no birth marriage or death for Charles Frederick Wilson b about C 1853?
Do not know place of BIRTH or DEATH.
Death must have been between 1883 and 1891. Why? because last child b1883 Sarah Jane (named a wilson, it could of course be presumptive as we know that although this child is named Wilson it may not be his child, but one assumes until proved wrong).
CFWilson is listed as a PLUMBER (maybe a journey man plumber so he was a mobile creature ) on my G G father`s marriage certificate in 1894 ( a John William Wilson b 1875). but CF Wilson was NOT listed as dead, in father slot.
As plumbers in those days dealt with LEAD pipes etc, madness may be an occurrence, so I wonder if Charles Frederick Wilson was in an asylum (eg he was thought of as dead by Elizabeth, wife and stated so on census ), and often the death was not recorded or the bodies were dumped in a mass grave after abuse.
JUST wondering if this was so, because I find no record of him...

[Nivekdrawoh]

Thank you WELSH LADY
On my GG grandfather`s (eg GGrand, John William Wilson b 1875, who wed a hannah Hayes in South Crosland because she was pregnant) MARRAIGE Cert, the father of him (JWW) was Charles Frederick Wilson. John William Wilson (my ggrand) named his first son after him, Charles Frederick Wilson b1895 Manchester.

[heatherjulie]

I know that this is before John William Wilson was born but just in case:

There is a burial for
Charles Frederick Wilson on 20th April 1872 Philips Park Cemetery Manchester
There is a Samuel William Wilson in the same grave 14th August 1873

Heather

added: this Charles Frederick Wilson was 0
Samuel William Wilson was 0

[Nivekdrawoh]

Thank you WELSH LADY your 2nd post re........
3rd April 1893 St Philip Salford Lancs
Groom -William Higson, 54 yrs Velvet Finisher
Address-39 James St
Father-John Higson, occ -Dyer
Bride-Elizabeth Wilson, 40, ,Housekeeper, widow
Address-27 George St
Father-William Mundy, occ-Tailor
Witnesses-Francis Sawyer and Clara Mundy
This ties in with census data[/size]
ReplyThis indeed is a NEW one totally to me and it seems to have links............
Reply... but in 1891 Census Elizabeth Wilson (nee Mundy) Head widow, was living at 23 George st Salford and was a shop keeper provisions, with son John William Wilson (my gggrandfather) age 16 circular sawyer looks like) JW.Wilson 1875 became a letter set printer, in Harpurhey M/C and was such in 1911 as wed to Hannah Wilson (neeHayes)

The Mystery is his father Charles Frederick Wilson B (whenever) c1852 ish, listed as plumber on Mar cert of son JW Wilson b 1875. EG one wonder was he living (bigamist) with two wives then? as someone suggests he was wed to someone other than Elizabeth Wilson (nee Mundy) B1853..................