Kilmarnock Kirk Session Records for 1863?

[aucklandkirsty]

I am hoping that somebody can point me in the right direction to find Kirk Session Records for Kilmarnock? The problem is that I am not sure of the church that the records would be for? My husband’s 3 x great grandmother Esther Moffat (born 1840 in County Armagh) gave birth to an illegitimate daughter Elizabeth Moffat in February 1863 at 56 High Street, Kilmarnock. I am not sure if this was a private address or some sort of hospital? I am hoping that the Kirk Session Records may indicate who Elizabeth’s father was.  If anyone could give any advice as to which particular church I should be looking at that would be wonderful!

Esther went on to marry John McNish in June 1864 at 12 Park Street, Kilmarnock. They were married “after banns, according to the forms of the Church of Scotland” by the Minister of Kilmarnock, but which Church would this have been? It doesn’t give a name of the church, only an address. Or was 12 Park Street their home, as both list their address as “Park Street”?

Thank you for any advice,

Kirsty in New Zealand

[anne_p]

Hi Kirsty,
In the time period, most couples were married at the home, more often, at the home of the bride.

The address will be correct.
A marriage ceremony within a church buiding did not become popular until the 20th century.

[loobylooayr]

Hi Kirsty,

Chances are that the baby Elizabeth Moffat was born at home.
High Street Kilmarnock was at that time an area of poor housing I believe.

Here is a picture of the street (I don't know the date, but it's old) - http://bmc.burnsmonumentcentre.co.uk/2012/09/

Have you looked for Esther on the 1861 Census?

As for Kirk Session records - there was a church , as you can see in the picture not a stone's throw from High Street - High Church as it was called.
http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/234087/details/kilmarnock+soulis+street+old+high+kirk+and+kirkyard+with+soulis+monument/
But Kirk Session records are notoriously difficult to search. Here's a link to some info -
http://www.nas.gov.uk/about/101101.asp

Hope all this helps,
Good luck,
Looby

[MonicaL]

Hi Kirsty

Just adding to all the good advice here 

In 1891, there are at least 44 people all showing as residing at 12 Park Street Kilmarnock. So the address was certainly multi occupancy and not a church address as mentioned already.

Sadly, not sure what you are likely to find anything in Kirk Session minutes for this period and for Kilmarnock (if they have survived, they can only be viewed personally and won't be available to view online) ...but I never say never to anything really  Just unlikely unfortunately really.

From most people's experience of illegitimacy around this period and trying to trace further back, things to check are:

• Birth - sometimes there are notes on the l/h margin of the birth register (post 1855). These notes may indicate that the father's details may be known due to legal process by checking the register of corrected entries (RCE). If nothing shows, then there is likely no official note of potential father. Father's name was included only if he attended the Registrar to confirm he was father. If not, no father's details were included. Sometimes, illegitimate children used their reputed father's surname, so this can give clues to potential father. You don't mention this, so likely not in this case?
• Marriage - sometimes a child, if he/she knew the name of the reputed father, would include it here. However, this is also the time that many added ficticious names to cover their illigitimacy which then can complicate your research.
• Death - sometimes a name for a father can be added.
• Children's names - again, if someone knew father's name, it may come up and be used when naming of their children.

Be hopeful though...sometimes things pop up which help 

Monica

[aucklandkirsty]

Hi Kirsty,
In the time period, most couples were married at the home, more often, at the home of the bride.

The address will be correct.
A marriage ceremony within a church buiding did not become popular until the 20th century.

Hi there, thank you for replying. I had never heard of couples marrying at home during this time period, I just assumed they were all married in the Church! You learn something everyday!

Thanks again,
Kirsty

[aucklandkirsty]

Hi Kirsty,

Chances are that the baby Elizabeth Moffat was born at home.
High Street Kilmarnock was at that time an area of poor housing I believe.

Here is a picture of the street (I don't know the date, but it's old) - http://bmc.burnsmonumentcentre.co.uk/2012/09/

Have you looked for Esther on the 1861 Census?

As for Kirk Session records - there was a church , as you can see in the picture not a stone's throw from High Street - High Church as it was called.
http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/234087/details/kilmarnock+soulis+street+old+high+kirk+and+kirkyard+with+soulis+monument/
But Kirk Session records are notoriously difficult to search. Here's a link to some info -
http://www.nas.gov.uk/about/101101.asp

Hope all this helps,
Good luck,
Looby

Hi Looby,

Thank you for the reply and for the links to the information. It sounds about right that Esther would have been living in a poorer area. Her family seem to have arrived in Kilmarnock from Armagh in the late 1840s and by the time she marries in 1864 her parents (William and Elizabeth Moffat) had both passed away (according to the marriage certificate). I think I found Esther on the 1861 census, working as a domestic servant at The Black Bull Inn, Bridge Street, Galston. However I can't be sure because this Esther gives her birthplace as Kilmarnock but my Esther was born in Ireland. However on her NZ Death Certificate Esther's place of birth is also mentioned as Ayrshire, Scotland - so perhaps she had been living in Scotland since such a young age that she "forgot" that she was actually from Ireland!

I will have a look further into High Church - this sounds a possibility!

Thanks again for the reply - I really appreciate it.
Kirsty

[aucklandkirsty]

Hi Kirsty

Just adding to all the good advice here 

In 1891, there are at least 44 people all showing as residing at 12 Park Street Kilmarnock. So the address was certainly multi occupancy and not a church address as mentioned already.

Sadly, not sure what you are likely to find anything in Kirk Session minutes for this period and for Kilmarnock (if they have survived, they can only be viewed personally and won't be available to view online) ...but I never say never to anything really  Just unlikely unfortunately really.

From most people's experience of illegitimacy around this period and trying to trace further back, things to check are:

• Birth - sometimes there are notes on the l/h margin of the birth register (post 1855). These notes may indicate that the father's details may be known due to legal process by checking the register of corrected entries (RCE). If nothing shows, then there is likely no official note of potential father. Father's name was included only if he attended the Registrar to confirm he was father. If not, no father's details were included. Sometimes, illegitimate children used their reputed father's surname, so this can give clues to potential father. You don't mention this, so likely not in this case?
• Marriage - sometimes a child, if he/she knew the name of the reputed father, would include it here. However, this is also the time that many added ficticious names to cover their illigitimacy which then can complicate your research.
• Death - sometimes a name for a father can be added.
• Children's names - again, if someone knew father's name, it may come up and be used when naming of their children.

Be hopeful though...sometimes things pop up which help 

Monica

Hi Monica,

Thank you very much for the reply - it is most appreciated and is helping to really add context to the dates and addresses I have from the certificates etc.

Thank you also for the advice re the illegitimate search. There is nothing on Elizabeth Moffat's birth certificate to indicate who her father may be, frustratingly the other two illegitimate births on the same page as the certificate have the father's name listed too, but on Elizabeth's it is blank!
Also it is frustrating that Elizabeth's 1879 NZ marriage certificate does not list parents names for either party!
Strangely though when we found Elizabeth's gravestone last year it does give a previously unknown middle name of "Stewart" which we had attributed to it being Esther's mother Elizabeth's maiden name, but now I am wondering whether Mr Stewart was Elizabeth Moffat's father?

Anyway thank you once again for the reply and helpful tips!

Kirsty

[loobylooayr]

Hello again Kirsty,
I think Esther on the 1861 in Galston Ayrshire could well be the Esther you are researching.
If she was living in as a domestic servant it was probably her employer who provided her details to the enumerator and if he/she was unsure of Esther's place of birth they may just have said Ayrshire. If her family had been in Scotland for several years she could well have had a more local accent.
Or maybe Esther didn't want to give Ireland as her place of birth for some reason. 
And when she died whoever registered her death may have thought she was born in Ayrshire when in fact she had lived there prior to her emigrating (not unusual for relatives to make a mistake with the place of birth on death certs).

As for the middle name "Stewart"  - yes it could have been a nod to her natural father but equally it could be that her maternal Grandmother was Elizabeth Stewart before she married William Moffat. Is  Esther's mother's maiden name recorded on Esther's marriage cert?

I have found the family on the 1851 Census. Do you have that info?

BTW -   I live in Ayrshire (not far from Galston). The Black Bull building is still standing although now sadly empty and boarded up - although it was still a pub right up to 4/5 years ago when it closed.
Here's an old photo- http://www.futuremuseum.co.uk/collections/arts-crafts/arts/photography/photographic-views-of-kilmarnock-loudoun/bridge-street,-galston.aspx

Looby

[JMStrachan]

By 1863, the power of the kirk session had waned considerably, especially in industrial towns that attracted "incomers", so I doubt you'd find that she'd been brought before the kirk session. In any case, the kirk session minutes can only be researched at selected archive centres in Scotland: they are not online as they haven't yet been indexed.

After birth certificates were introduced in 1855, registrars were only allowed to include the father's name for an illegitimate child if the father attended the registration or gave his written permission. They were not allowed to take the mother's word for it!

Sometimes an illegitimate child names their father on their marriage certificate but sadly your ancestor hasn't. And yes, a middle name can sometimes be the father's surname, but a girl named Elizabeth Stewart Moffat was more likely to have been named for someone called Elizabeth Stewart. If Elizabeth was her mother's first daughter then it could well be that her grandmother's maiden name was Elizabeth Stewart.

I have ancestors who lived at High Street, Kilmarnock. Most of the houses seem to have been multi-tenanted, with families living in one or two rooms. And yes, back in 1863 Scotland both births and marriages would have taken place at home, and not in a hospital or church.