Strange 1911 Census entry – was he there or deceased? (Not a look-up request)

[MJW]

I am trying to discover when and where John Wynne died (he was born in 1864).  The last definite recorded event I can find for him is on the 1901 census in Blackburn, age 37 Cotton Weaver, with his wife Mary Ellen Wynne and 5 children.

I’ve found his family on the 1911 census but John Wynne’s entry is very odd.  It shows he was originally recorded as Head, age 48 Weaver, with his wife Mary Ellen and 5 children.  However, his name and other details have been crossed out and his wife’s status changed to “widow” & Head, and total number of persons in household reduced from 7 to 6.

I’m trying to make sense of this which seems to suggest he was deceased but why was he first recorded.  Had someone forgotten he’d died -  or had they simply misunderstood what they were supposed to enter ?  Or was the entry amended later ?

Also, the signature box originally showed Thomas Wynne’ name (their 17 year old son) but Thomas is crossed out and replaced with Mary Ellen Wynne (the wife/widow).

I would be really grateful for any opinions on this entry.

*** I’m not sure after reading our Copyright rules whether I’m allowed to post the 1911 image or a portion of  it (even though I’m not asking for a look-up).  Please can someone clarify.

Thanks ... Malcolm

[aghadowey]

It could be that Mrs. Wynnne (or her son) did not understand the census instructions and placed John's details on the first line but when the enumerator came around to collect the forms he crossed out the dead man's details and then got John's wife (as head of household) to sign the form.
It's also possible that John was alive when the census form was delivered to the household but died before the census night itself.
My guess is that the former is more likely but have you searched for possible deaths 1901-1911 yet?

Added- you haven't said if the family were still in Blackburn in 1911 but this is the only death for a John Wynne in Blackburn district between 1901-1911:
John Wynne, age 48, Jan./Mar.1910 Blackburn volume 8e page 307

[trystan]

Malcolm,

Yes, you can, no problem there.  (Terms, Section 6.5)

A low resolution portion of a census record may be posted on the Forum, provided that it is only used for private study or research purposes of a non-commercial nature. The Forum limits file attachments to 500kB in order to limit resolution and sizes of images posted for this reason. We would expect such images to be used for handwriting recognition

Census information is Crown Copyright, National Archives for academic and non-commercial research purposes only

Trystan
RootsChat Caretaker

[MJW]

Aghadowey

Yes, the family were still in Blackburn in 1911 although a different address than 1901.  I've searched for possible deaths 1901 to1911, and the 1910 Blackburn death is not him.

John Wynne was not recorded on the first line of 1911 census, his wife Mary Ellen was.  He was on the second line.

Thanks .... Malcolm

[aghadowey]

Are you positive the Blackburn death cannot be the correct John Wynne?

[aghadowey]

According to Lancs FreeBMD the 1910 John Wynne death was in the sub-district of Darwen- not sure where that is in relation to the family's address in 1911 and 1901.

[MJW]

Thanks Trystan for that clarification on Copyright.

Here are the relevant relevant portions of the census image.

Thanks .... Malcolm
 

[aghadowey]

Looks like they just botched up the return and the enumerator made corections. Have you gotten the 1910 John Wynne death to eliminate that as the correct death certificate or is there another reason you think it can't be correct?

[MJW]

Looks like they just botched up the return and the enumerator made corections. Have you gotten the 1910 John Wynne death to eliminate that as the correct death certificate or is there another reason you think it can't be correct?

I think you could be right with the "botch up" suggestion, perhaps they just didn't understand what they were supposed to enter.  Also, I thought it a little odd that 17 year old Thomas (rather than his mother or one of his older siblings) apparently made the original entries but perhaps he was the most literate or had the best writing.

The only other suggestions I can think of are:-
- John and his wife were not living together, and Mary Ellen (after the initial mistakes in entering) decided she wanted him removed and/or actually thought he might be deceased
- John wanted to disappear for some reason and not be on the census (but this botched entry almost draws more attention)

I'm checking this John Wynne issue on behalf of an old friend of mine who's been baffled by this for some time.  He told me that he had eliminated the 1910 death.  I'm not sure whether he actually got the death certificate or there is some other reason. Darwen is a small town very close to Blackburn, and the Darwen registration district used to extend into parts of Blackburn. I will check with him.
 
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
  Malcolm