Alice Slater

[lizdb]

Surely being found on the doorstep and being adopted are not mutually exclusive?

Either he WAS actually found on their doorstep. And then they took him in and 'adopted ' him.

OR,

they took him in and' adopted ' him from someone, but instead of telling him of a sad and complex start to his life, stirring up all sorts of hornets nests, and maybe something the family wanted covered up, they just told him he had been found on the doorstep. Presumably hoping this would mean he would never think it worth trying to find his true parentage.

Remember any adoption would be an unofficial arrangement. Formal adoption began in about the 1920's I believe

[heywood]

Hi again,
Thomas looks to be 15 yrs in 1911 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X7VX-DNX

I'm not sure if you would ever get to the bottom of this story. Looking at 1911, some family members may have used their middle name so perhaps Winifred was a middle name or she was called by a different name after registration.
I wonder if there are any baptisms to search- can't see any online.

I also wonder if he was Barbara's child - although you would think he would be the right age then in the census, if she gave the information. As to the reasons given for his appearance in the family - it may have been better than under the gooseberry bush etc.
Barbara married in 1904 by the looks of it as Slater.

There is a marriage in 1871 where John Thomas and Hannah Davies are among the spouses - but common names.
Barbara was registered as Davies though wasn't she?

heywood

[kinged]

Hi again
Thomas' age on 1811 gives his year of birth as 1886, the same as winifreda, unlike his army records which he had put as 1885, which suggests that he was unsure of his age.
Winifreda which is her name on the census shows her as being born Babell, Shropshire.
Babell is most definatel in Flintshire, and adjoining Caerwys.
All the places where the lived are within a three mile radious, eg, Lloc where the elder boys were born,Babell,caerwys,and the address for barbara which is given as in Brynford is only one mile from Caerwys.
I guess we are no nearer of solving this problem, and still don't know what happened to Alice after 1911,which is what thomas' family were seeking.
Thanks again.
Frank

[heywood]

Hi Frank,

Just a couple of points:
You have the wrong years in your latest post but we know what you mean 

1911 census was taken in April 1911
According to family and army records, Thomas's birthday was August (1895)
Therefore in April 1911, he would be 15 yrs.
The transcription just subtracts 15 from 1911 to give 1896.

Thanks for the explanation re the geography of the area.

As I said earlier, there is a tree for the family you have given for Alice which has a photo of an older lady - Alice Slater but I do think that there is a big doubt re Alice as mother to Thomas.

Heywood

[kinged]

thanks heywood.
I tried to register with mundia, but they said that my E-mail address already existed, and the refused to accept it, which is odd because I have never been on it before, but I have passed the information on to Thomas' daughter.
frank

[heywood]

If you have ancestry membership, you can see the tree there or use ancestry sign in on mundia.

[kinged]

thanks Heywood
I'm afraid I don't Have ancestry as I have always felt that I wouldn't get much from it,I have researced this information about 8 yrs ago, and came to the same results as we are getting now and only took out a short term membership.
I have only started this now because Thomas' daughter wanted to try to have another go since finding more on the 1911 census.
Frank

[kinged]

Hi all,
I realise  that we can't prove 100% that Thomas was the son of Alice Slater who gave birth to him on 27th of April 1897 in Rhyl, but also we can't prove that he was not.
The Thomas on the 1911 census was the person that my mother-in-law was told by her father Albert that he was found on the doorstep, so if as he put his age as 1895 on his army records, where was he in 1901, where as the thomas on the 1901 census living with Barbara, and given as her brother, age three, more or less matches up to the date of 1897, because we don't know when he was left with John and Hannah slater, it is possible that she breast fed him for awhile, and handed him over in the August which is the month that Thomas gave as his birthday; she could have kept him until she moved back with her family, or when her brother William John moved to Shropshire, Whenever that may have been, I'm sure that as a mother she would have felt something for him, especialy as she probably only moved away to avoid any embarrasment to the family.
 Jeanette, or Janet as she was called in 1911 was born in 1893, and winefred in 1897, so the 1895 date may have been given to make things look more respectable, coming halfway between the two; weighing all these things up tends to make me think that Thomas of 1901 and the Thomas of 1911 are one and the same, but it doesn't help us to find what happened to Alice after 1911.
Frank.

[heywood]

Hi Frank,

As you know I am not at all convinced by your reasoning. The age on the census is odd but we don't know who gave the information and if, as I had once thought, Barbara was his mother, then you would think that she would have given a correct date. However in 1911, his age does fits with his birthdate.

I have given you a link to the family of Alice Slater several times now and can only advise you to look at that and if you think it is her, contact the tree owner. By the looks of it, Alice lived to an old (er) age so there may be some information on her within the family.

heywood