ORIGINS: William Harry (Billy) SIMPSON, c.1848-1902

[NJ Holmes]

Thanks majm,

I applied and got a baptism cert for William H Simpson b. 1849 from the NSW site, but it appears to be the wrong one, a William Henry Simpson, parents William and Susannah.

I will try your other suggestion for the ITM lookup. Thanking you all again

[majm]

Hi there,


NSW BDM Early Church Records includes four baptisms for William SIMPSON, son of William that may (and may not) refer to your chap.   Not everyone was baptised, not all baptisms were for infants, not all baptisms were conducted at the same location as the birth place, and not all baptisms are included in the Early Church Records held by NSW BDM.

I can see FOUR possibles at NSW BDM online index:

1848 line 265, Vol 50,  William, parents as William and Elizabeth
1848 Line 1466, Vol 145, William, parents as William and Rosanna
1849, line 1907, Vol 55, Wiliam, parents as William and Eliza
1849, line 1619 Vol 34A, William H, parents as William and Susannah  (I assume this is the one you ordered, not sure why you consider this as appearing to be the wrong one)

I do think the ITM lookup request may help you further. 

Then again,  perhaps a request of the Church were the marriage took place?  May be they can advise you where the Church register would be located, and if there is additional information on the register that is not on the NZ BDM issued marriage cert.    I know that the NZ BDM print out is not just cheaper than the NZ BDM certificate, but often has a greater depth of detail recorded on it.

Re the NSW BDM online index does not give the district for these Early Baptismal Records, so there is no telling if any of the four certs I have noted above were for baptisms celebrated in the districts that became the colony of Victoria.  But, the index itself does NOT date from the year of the event, in fact it dates from volunteers transcribing the records in the 1930s, so it may well be your chap’s possible baptism is one of the above.

At the FamilySearch website, in the Historical Recrods section, here’s two, there may well be others :
William Henry SIMPSON born 11 Feb 1849, Baptised 11 March 1849, at Gunning NSW  parents as William and Susannah SIMPSON https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTC2-5RX    Gunning is of course located on the route to Victoria that was part of the overland way to Victoria in the 1840s (Hume Highway)

William SIMPSON, baptised 11 Feb 1849, AT Portland Head and Pitt Town, parents as William and Elizabeth
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTDF-F8Q   (Hawkesbury district, north west of Sydney)

https://familysearch.org/search

Cheers,  JM

[NJ Holmes]

Thanks again JM

I consider the one I ordered to be incorrect because he has the wrong middle name. He is William Henry where mine is William Harry.

According to the marriage cert, they were not married in a church but at a private residence. The certificate names the officiating minister (Charles Fraser), but does not contain a denomination! I will see what comes of the ITM lookup.

[majm]

Harry is a recognised "pet" name for Henry 


The Church register used by the Rev conducting the ceremony would have been taken to the private residence for signing by the parties and witnessed too,  and then returned to the Church building for safe keeping.  (Add, perhaps to a Manse, or to where-ever the clergyman was residing. It was his responsibility to give it safe keeping according to the laws of his denomination).   There was and still is NO requirement for a marriage ceremony to be conducted within the formal Church Building.   Many ceremonies in the various antipodean colonies were not held within Church Buildings, but are recorded in Church Registers.

Cheers,  JM

[NJ Holmes]

Harry is a recognised "pet" name for Henry

I know this, but it doesn't prove anything.

The Church register used by the Rev conducting the ceremony would have been taken to the private residence for signing by the parties and witnessed too,  and then returned to the Church building for safe keeping.  (Add, perhaps to a Manse, or to where-ever the clergyman was residing. It was his responsibility to give it safe keeping according to the laws of his denomination).   There was and still is NO requirement for a marriage ceremony to be conducted within the formal Church Building.

I know all of this too. The point is, the denomination is not listed, so I don't know which Church building it was or may have been returned to.

[majm]

In case you are not already aware,

There’s  a Rev Charles FRASER marrying Margaret A BLYTH noted in the West Coast Times of 14 May 1883.  They were married at St Andrew’s Manse, Christchurch, by the Rev T R CAIRNS,.

I wonder if that would be indicating that Rev Charles Fraser was perhaps an ordained Presbyterian Minister.

NZ papers past is a great place to search

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast

There’s also an RChat thread  giving The Manse address: Tuam Street Christchurch
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=440374.0

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Hi DadLoco,

I am not overly familiar with NZ BDMs but I believe the birth certificates of William's children should record his birthplace and his death certificate should also name his parents and state how long he had been in NZ if this was known to the informant.  Do you have either of these documents?

Debra 

This is what I have:

Marriage certificate for William Harry SIMPSON and Harriett Ann TALLOTT
Date: 6 Jul 1874
Groom's age: 25
Groom's occupation: Jockey
(Note: At this point, NZ marriage certificates did not record names of parents)

Birth certificate for Ada/Aida Ellen SIMPSON
Date: 17 Aug 1884
Father: William Harry SIMPSON
Occupation: Bushman
Age: 37
Birthplace: Victoria

Death certificate for William Harry SIMPSON
Date: 26 Oct 1902
Age: 54
Parents: Unknown
Birthplace: Melbourne, Victoria
How long in New Zealand: 38 years
Informant: Walter Herbert SIMPSON, son of deceased

May I mention the discussion Harry v Henry and add that there's also the matter of TALLET v TALLOTT    and so may I suggest that the follow index entries may well be of interest as these are from the NZ BDM online  index

The surname is of course SIMPSON

1875 Walter Herbert (with parents as Harriet Ann and William H)
1876 Miriam Louisa (Harriet and William Harry)
1877 Annie Harriet (Harriet Ann and William Harry)
1879 Lydia Alice  (Harriet Ann and William Harry)
1881 Eliza Jane (Harriet Ann and William Harry
1882 Harry Andrew (Harriett Ann and William Harry
1884 Aida Ellen (Harriette Ann and William Henry)
1887  Olive Edith Mary (Harriett Ann and William Henry)
1890 Gertrude Eva (Harriet Anne and William Harry)
1893 Charles Edward (Harriet Ann and William Harry)
1895 Effie (Harriet Ann and William Harry)

Also, here's the link for the ITM enquiry over on the NZ board, (the moderator over there will look up the ITM for DadLoco)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=668655.0


Cheers,  JM

[cando]

There only four Wm SIMPSON baptisms and one birth registration to 1853 in Victoria.  Two in 1842, the one cited in 1849 and another in 1853.  It is not unusual for the second given name not to be on either the baptism record or birth registration. 

The documents you have give his birth a c1847, c1848 and c1849 and there are no baptism for these years other than the one you mention in 1849.

Marriage
SIMPSON John
NEILL Jane
1847  Reg#3937
Denomination Independent Congregational, Parish Melbourne Fiche#905

Baptism
SIMPSON William
Father John  Mother Jane
At Melbourne 1849  Reg#2628
Denomination Church of England  Parish St Peters Melbourne Fiche#383

Wm SIMPSON born c1847 son of John SIMPSON and Jane NEILL died at Bendigo in 1915.  So doubt that this is the baptism of your Wm Harry/Henry.  His younger brother John was baptised the same year.  John and Jane NEILL had a large family and there are many references to them on TROVE.

Cando

[cando]

I should have added.  You are seeking records before the introduction of civil registration in Victoria.  IF he was baptised it is possible the parish records were not handed to the Registry for transcription to their records.

Cando