Dowdy / Mcartney / Thurston in Victoria / South Australia

[cando]

Seeing I have spent time transcribing the two news items while they have now been linked, I will leave them on the board. 

Where was her husband Wm and why was she living alone in a rented house when she had relatives in the town?

The Horsham Times Tues  13 Aug 1895

A married women named Brown, who had been for some weeks living alone a house in McPherson street, rented from Miss Byrne, was last evening found dead, lying on tile floor in her room. Miss Byrne, who had been accustomed to bestow upon the woman kindly attentions, missed her and, looking in at the house, made the discovery of her death. From the appearance of the body it is judged that the woman died in a fit. She is believed to have relatives living in the town. Miss Byrne informed the police of her discovery, and Sergeant Molyneux reported the matter to the district coroner. A magisterial enquiry will probably be held to-day.


The Horsham Times  Fri 16 Aug 1895

MAGISTERIAL ENQUIRY.

On Tuesday afternoon Mr Twycross J.P. held a magisterial enquiry into the circumstances of the death of Mary Ann Brown, a married women, 61 years of age, who, as already reported in the Times was found dead on the floor in a room of the house she occupied in McPherson street. Miss Teresa Byrne, who found the body, stated that she had been attracted to the house by the fact that the blind was down. She called the deceased by name, and receiving no answer, opened the door, which was unlocked. She then discovered the woman lying on the floor, apparently dead. The police were called sent and on Trooper Downey examining the body, then still warm, he found life to he extinct. The woman was last seen alive on Sunday by Mrs. Brett, a neighbor, and she then appeared to be in her usual health. On the Saturday, however, she had complained to both her daughter-in-law. Mrs. Dowdy, and to Mrs. Brett, of feeling unwell, and while Mr. Dowdy was at the house she had a slight fit. Mrs. Dowdy called at the house about four o'clock or Monday evening. There was then no one at home and the house door was locked. It was six o'clock when Miss Byrne made the discovery, so it is evident that death occurred between the hour of four and six. Dr. Young deposed that the woman had been under his care for some time, suffering full epilepsy, and on examination of the body, upon which there were no marks of violence led him to conclude that she had died in an epileptic fit. A finding in accordance, with the medical testimony was arrived at.  The deceased had several relatives in the district who at arranged for the funeral, which took place on Wednesday. The house it which she had resided was well provisioned and she appeared to have wanted for nothing.

Cando

[judb]

Thanks, Cando, Wivenhoe and Sue for the info re Mary Ann's death.  Nothing came up for me in TROVE     Do we have a death for William?

I think we have her life pretty well sorted now 

Judith

[mhetfield]

On the marriage certificate for Mary and John (which I do have a copy) 
Mary could well have accidentally signed her name as Dowdy
but then why would she write her father's name as Charles Dowdy not Charles Thurston?
Mary also lists her mother as Mary McCartney only to later use McCartney as her maiden name.

I could see that she may of used her mothers last name (McCartney) to avoid confusion, as Mary was supposedly already a Dowdy, which would explain the two children's births in Victoria (which I do have the certificates for)

The first use of Thurston came from South Australia, where John and Mary have the rest of there children, Mary using Thurston as her maiden name (please note that John Snr died when all of the children are quite young the eldest being . John Jnr states on his marriage certificate (which I do have) his mothers maiden name is Mary Thurston.

Mary died in Horsham using Thurston as her maiden name and Charles Thurston as her fathers name but no mother listed on the death certificate (which I do have)

So is the marriage between John and Mary wrong? the two births in Victoria wrong? or is the births and marriage (to William Brown) in South Australia wrong?

Could it be that John didn't want his family to know that he married a Dowdy?

[cando]

My opinion for what it's worth.

Obviously some sort of confusion when the minister/priest was filling out the marriage registration.  Perhaps Mary Ann thought as she was now legally married, that her name was Mary Ann DOWDY.  Perhaps the minister assumed that was her maiden name.  Mary would not have written the information but responded to questions by the officiating minister/priest.

According to you, information on Vic birth cert not given by Mary Ann but by her husband.

Perhaps the South Australian local registrar was clearer with his questions.

So is the marriage between John and Mary wrong? the two births in Victoria wrong? or is the births and marriage (to William Brown) in South Australia wrong?

Mary died in Horsham using Thurston as her maiden name and Charles Thurston as her fathers name but no mother listed on the death certificate (which I do have)

That information would have been helpful earlier in the thread . 

Would you like to type up all the information on Mary's death certificate and I would particularly like to see a snip of the column that shows her father's names and profession as the index does not show his name as Charles.  The abbreviation for Charles is Chas.

Cando

[judb]

Do you have the certificate for the first baby - Mary Ann DOWDY b 1865?  Could you please transcribe it, including the place of birth, the informant and the person in attendance?

I agree with Cando that confusion is not uncommon on certificates where the informant is not quite sure whose mother/father/whatever is being requested.  As has been said it is possible that Mary Ann thought her name was DOWDY, but this does not explain the names she has given for her parents. Did she sign her name or mark with a cross? Illiteracy would mean, of course, that she was unable to check the record.

This search is most intriguing. 

Judith

[mhetfield]

Sorry cando it is difficult to be certain about the people I have found likely as they are given such discrepancies on the certificates. 

the birth certificates in Victoria did list John as the informant, perhaps you are right and John did get Mary's name wrong. it would be amazing that they had more children after John not knowing Mary's name for 3 years. I'm not sure I would be so lucky 

if Thurston is Mary's rightful maiden name and Charles Thurston her father what a lot of mistakes to have happened to one woman.

sorry it does not say Charles I just enlarged on the computer  it actually said Christian name and underneath not known,  occupation not known mother not known  so that is probably where Chris came from! it could be read as Thurston or Thorston it is difficult to read.

the cause of death is the same as the inquest I think you have viewed? (epileptic fit)

remember the information given on a death certificate is NOT given by the person in question but by living relative.

I guess I just don't have efficient evidence for any of the three surnames to say it is one or the other with certainty, Mary does use Thurston on more certificates then any other name however there is no mention of it until they relocate to South Australia.

Judith, I do have the certificate apart from the alternative spelling of McCartney everything else is pretty much the same.
Mary did sign her marriage certificate as Mary Ann Dowdy quite clearly as she did with other certificates using different surnames so I guess the search continues!

[sparrett]

Meet field
Perhaps you will not mind me noting that  it has been suggested a couple of times on the thread that you transcribe (that is write word for word) what is on some of the certificates.
It has also been suggested you post a small section of one.
If you would take the time to do this by way of following advice given, there may be something the more experienced eye might see. 
This transcribing would mean you write exactly what is written in each and every column.
Sue

[majm]

Hi there,

That's a very good point that Sue is kindly mentioning.    May I share some of my oral history ....  Several of my ancestors across a couple of generations worked for the NSW Registrar General's Office, some at fairly senior levels.  So you would hope they knew the ropes.     When my Great Uncle registered the birth of my Uncle,  my Great Uncle used as the maiden name for his wife, HIS OWN mum's maiden name ! He did this for the first three of his children.   After that, his WIFE did the registering.   

I ought to say no more, but he was well educated..., he was so well educated that his handwriting is so full of flourishes that it causes many issues for transcribers....

PS, adding (cause I forgot to include this bit orginally) Gt Uncle's mother and mother in law both LIVED with them     

Cheers,  JM

[cando]

I haven't viewed the inquest file.  I have transcribed information from the Inquest INDEX  The file is only available for reading in the PROV reading rooms.  PROV do not offer a copying service.  You can engage an agent to do this for you.

Just had a thought.  IF Hester Barbara MCARTNEY and Mary Ann THURSTON travelled to Beechworth together and married in the same year [well on the marriage index they both married in 1864 but we only know the place for Mary Ann] is it possible they married on the same day?  Yes I know very speculative but that's how one needs to approach research initially. 

As you are aware there are a number of marriages on the same page of the register when you download the 'image' from the Vic Dept of Justice.  Would you please have a look at the other marriages on the page.  My thoughts are.....if they married on the same day the minister may have copied the wrong information from the parish register.

Would you consider that John DOWDY or Mary Ann THURSTON had free flowing signatures ie did their signatures appear to be written confidently or did Mary Ann copy her new husband's surname.  If they were both illiterate and there is inaccurate information on the marriage certificate, John may have taken the certificate to the local registrar when registering his children's births as he may not have been able to give the required info eg date of marriage, etc etc. and the incorrect information is once again entered.

I would suggest the local bdm registrar in South Australia was more diligent with his questioning hence Mary Ann's correct name ie Mother Mary Ann (formerly) DOWDY (nee) THURSTON

Genealogy is not an exact science and I think you need to approach this research with a bit of commonsense as well as transcribe all the information on the certificates.

Cando