Flaherty / Roels

[Bikegirl]

That Mary Ann Amelia isn't ours as she married a Captain J Roels and at her death the only daughter was Blanche. ( & two sons) (Trove)

[majm]

On the marriage certificate the witness's were : Morris Upton and Emily Jane Upton.
Thomas : usual residence was Australia Street Kingston
Hannah : usual residence was Marey ?? Moley ?? Street Kingston ( Street name unreadable).

The certificate has that she is a minor but no mention on who gave permission. On the NSW BDM it states : Particulars in Columns 5- (Birthplace), 7 - (Age) , 9- (Parents details) & 10- (Occupation) obtained from Church register no 464 WH Young Deputy Register Sydney 16 Oct 1915

There ought to be a register around that has the name of the person giving consent, and also gives the actual age for Hannah.   She is recorded as Minor, so she has strived to give truthful answers to the clergyman when being interviewed prior to the marriage. 

Kingston .... part of Newtown.   
so yes, Thomas was of Australia Street and Hannah was of Mary Street .... 

Here's some info from the Electoral Rolls (females were not eligible to enrol)

NSW ER 1870 NEWTOWN

John FLAHERTY, Lennox St, freeholder
Philip John ROELS, Denison St, householder
Morris UPTON, St Mary’s St, householder
James FLANADY, residing Smith’s Lane, freeholder, Camperdown Raod, Cook (the location, not the occupation)


NSW ER 1878 NEWTOWN
Thomas D BRATBY, Albermarle St, householder
John FLAHERTY, Lennox St, freeholder, residing Sydney
Martin FLAHERTY, residence, Cavendish St,
Bernard FLAHERTY, Purkiss St CAMPERDOWN, householder
William FLANADY, freeholder Camperdown, residing Petersham
Philip John ROELS, Camden St, householder
Morris UPTON, St Mary’s St, householder

St Mary’s St, ran into Camperdown
Mary St ran from King to Lennox Streets
Lennox ran from Bedford to Australia/Church Streets, crossing Regent and Denison  and Mary streets …. 

Cheers,  JM  PS, it would be sensible to remove the full marriage cert image, as it may involve a copyright issue, we are allowed snips to help with deciphering, but not full documents.

[majm]

Assessment Books  online 

http://www.sydneyarchives.info/images/stories/1878_Kingston.pdf

http://www.sydneyarchives.info/rate-books

http://www.sydneyarchives.info/streets

Fingers Crossed

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Could there be TWO chaps named Phillip ROELS 

In the NSW Police Gazettes a Frank Spicer, alias George Russell was charged with shooting with intent Phillip J H G ROELS and the trial was set for Sydney Quarter Sessions, 2 April 1891 .  Frank Spicer was sentenced to 7 years penal servitude.   

So that particular Mr Philip ROELS has several “middle names”  J, H, G …….

And, Yes there even have been THREE 

Death registered 1919 at NEWTOWN, Philip G ROELS, son of Sydney P and Alice E (15008)
Death registered 1924 at SYDNEY, Phillip J ROELS, son of Phillip J and Mary AA (5458)

Cheers,  JM

[Bikegirl]

Thanks so much JM  - have removed certificate - you have given me more information but still at a loss as to Hannah parents.

So now we have a Hannah Flawday, Hannah Flaherty , Hannah Bratby, Ann Bratby with a mother Mary Ann Flawday, Mary Ann Rolls, Mary Roels and whose father might be John Philps, or John Phillip Roels, or John Phillips.  LOL Ha ha    no wonder I'm having so much trouble connecting this family!

[Jennaya]

Could the father be John James Francis Philp? I may be totally off track here, then again I might not be.
There was a well-researched book published in 1988 "The Story of John Nichols First Fleeter and five generations of his family"/K.Purnell, S.Tuck, S.Draper, B.Coleman & J.Marden.

One of John Nichols children married an Alexander Philp and the descendants lived around the Hunter River area.

Page 122 quote: "On 22nd October 1855 John (Philp) fathered a daughter Ann Sophia Phillip to Mary Ann Amelia Jones (nee Clapham) at Morpeth. This child was baptised on 25 November 1855 by Bishop William Tyrell.......
Mary Ann Amelia was known in the district as Mrs Philp. However, no record of her marriage can be found. Mary Ann Clapham was born on 2nd September 1838 at Sydney, the daughter of Hannah King (nee Hanson) and George Clapham. Mary Ann married William Jones in 1853. Between 1854 and 157 John James Francis had a relationship with Mary Ann Amelia."

The article goes on to say that nothing more could be found about Ann Sophia. This book was written before internet searching and since then other information about some of the people mentioned elsewhere in the book has come to light. Do you think this family could be the one you are looking for? there are some similarities (and differences)

Regards
Jennaya

[Bikegirl]

Oh - this sounds so close especially as Hannah's death certificate names her as Ann !!!! Is this book available do you know

Thank you so much. Now how did the Roels come into it ? and the Flawday ??

[majm]

yerrr

Can Longhand script 'Clapham' be read as 'Flawday' ?  Same no of characters same vowels  same up and down strokes ... perhaps there was a flourish completing 'm'

or perhaps the clergyman misread the permission slip for consent to marry rather than misreading his own handwriting

or perhaps Hannah was not descended from First Fleeter

or perhaps May Ann was born FLAWDAY and no record of any others with that name at all or  :


Can Mary Ann Amelia Mrs Philp formerly Jones nee Clapham/Hanson have moved on without formally ending her marriage to William Jones (NSW divorce dates from 1873, so YES she can ... otherwise Hannah Sophia would be nee JONES)

If she can move on ONCE can she move on more than once ...  of course she can ... 

Thats what makes family history intriguing

Cheers JM   

[Jennaya]

Oh - this sounds so close especially as Hannah's death certificate names her as Ann !!!! Is this book available do you know

Thank you so much. Now how did the Roels come into it ? and the Flawday ??

The book is out of print however it is held by some public libraries in NSW.(Search trove books to find out) Not sure where you live but it should be available from  inter-library loan by applying at your local library, if none of the listed libraries are in you area.