Frederick Gutrolf/g - Matilda Julia Laurence

[knbkms]

Is there anyone that can possibly help to knock down this enormous brickwall that I have spent 2 years chewing over.

Basically can anyone find out anything more about the above Frederick Gutrolf/Gutrolg

I have a marriage 30th Sept 1883 to the above Matilda Julia Lawrence at Bethnal Green,
His father was George Adam Gutrolf, deceased at time of wedding. Fredericks occ then was baker.

He comes from Germany on one census ~ Ohio, Cleveland on the other (1891)

In 1891 he is living at 41 Griffin Street with Matilda, he is now a gen lab.

And then he disappears ....... no death, no travel, no census records, nothing. Can anyone please tell me anything more about him .......

With many thanks and much appreciation

Kim

[CaroleW]

Does Matilda also disappear or is she on later censuses?

If she is - what is her marital status

What is his birthyear?

[CaroleW]

I've found the 1891 as Gutrolg and she is Mathilda.  Marriage cert shows her as Matilda Lawrence

Both aged 31 - she was b Deptford.

No children at that time

[Annette7]

You say 'he' disappears after 1891 but I can't see any further trace of her either!

Either he changed or anglicised his surname or they left the UK.

Annette

[knbkms]

Well I have a theory, I think that Matilda is the Matilda that went on to have two children with my great grandfather, they classed themselves as married but there is absolutely no evidence anywhere of a marriage so I am wondering that perhaps they couldn't marry because legally she was still married to Frederick. That's why I am going down this road, of trying to solve where he went so that I can work out whether Matilda and Frederick stayed together. I looked for evidence of leaving the country, nothing!!!!!!!!

[JaneyCanuck]

Those facts are always very possible -- but can you tell us how you have adopted this particular Matilda as the one who hooked up with great-grandpa?

I know the process well, having figured out that my gr-grfather did a name shift in the late 1870s, when I found that he did not exist before his 1883 marriage (and a possible sighting in the 1881 that turned out to be correct) ... but somebody with the same given names was born right when and where gr-grf claimed to have been, and disappeared right before gr-grf appeared.

It's a matter of ruling out at both ends -- did Matilda Julia Lawrence Gutrolf cease to exist after Point X, but also, did other Matilda never exist before Point X.

You may not want to name names, but if you do, it would help to give the info on Matilda the second, as well.

[knbkms]

I have spent months on this particular part of my tree, and I have eliminated most other Matilda Lawrences/Laurences that popped up when looking for mine. The problem is that I cant even eliminate this one because they do both, totally disappear after that 1891 census. No Mathilda Gutrolf/Gutrolg is anywhere, no children were born, no death, no travelling, nothing .... and add to the mix that My Matilda, who I know for sure was my great great grandmother had two children with my GGGrandfather, William Henry Pratt, and her name is quite clear on both their birth certificates, and on workhouse records, and her death in 1922 ........ but no marriage is to be found for them, on the 1911 census, when the entire family were in a workhouse in Dartford, she is stated as Matilda Julia Laurence, then Pratt added .... and "S" in her marital status, then crossed out and the "M" added ...... so I really don't think they married. I think they were a "rough" family, obviously very poor, and lived in the slummiest of "Sutton-AT-Hone" Swanley, and then the really "bad" parts of Deptford when they moved back.  I would so love to crack this, and actually don't think I will ever manage it, so far no stone has been left unturned and I don't think there is any other avenues. My post on here was a desperate one!!

[CaroleW]

The 1891 entry for Matilda Gutrolg shows her birthyear as 1860 and birthplace Deptford

Matilda Lawrence Pratt is shown as b 1872 Deptford

The 1883 marriage cert shows her father as Thomas Street Lawrence occ caulker and there is a baptism for a Matilda Julia Lawrence on 29.1.1858 at St Pauls Deptford - parents Thomas Edmund Lawrence - ship caulker and Susan Jane

[JaneyCanuck]

You've seen this entry for Fred Gutroll in the 1880 US census?

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MWF3-2WY

Ewington, Dauphin Co, Pennsylvania, USA
Aged 21 (c1859)
Born in Germany, parents born in Germany
Works at S. Works
(I don't have paid access to I don't know what the image says)
Several other men who seem to be boarders also all work at "S. Works".
Oh duh, Pennsylvania, this would be Steel Works.

Your Fred was in the 1881 UK census, so that would have been a quick move, but there is certainly a strong resemblance.