Help to find Thomas Carlen

[judb]

I am quite puzzled by some of the co-incidences and overlaps in the records for Thomas and Susan CARLEN and their son Thomas, with the records for John and Susan(nah) CARLEN and their son John William.

Could you tell us what records you have for either Thomas the father or Thomas the son - I can see only the one record on the 1851 census?

Was John CARLEN, 47 (b abt 1793), the person pleading guilty at the Old Bailey on 6 July 1840 to forging 2 bills of exchange?  This man was sentenced to 7 years transportation, (I cannot see a transportation for him but it's not unusual to be sentenced and kept in prison in UK) and in the 1841 census he is in the General Penitentiary, Millbank, Westminster, occupation: clerk, not born in Middlesex.

There is no mention of this man in the 1851 census but in 1861 he is with his wife Susannah, and son John William, as we have already seen.

I am inclined to think that there is a possibility that the 1851 entry for father Thomas and son Thomas is actually John, his wife Susan and their son John William using the forenames Thomas and Thomas.

My reasons, and they are only conjecture:
There is no birth registered for a Thomas CARLEN anywhere in England and Wales in 1845. There is a birth registered for John William in 1845 in Shoreditch.

In 1851 Thomas jnr's birthplace is given as City Road, Middlesex which is definitely within the Shoreditch registration district.
In 1851 Susan's birthplace is given as  Hampton, in 1861 Susannah (husband given as John) also has the birthplace Hampton  The ages of the adults, birthplaces of Thomas and John are consistent across the censuses also.

You say that Thomas jnr is a cousin of John William which implies that Thomas and John (the fathers) were brothers. It seems to me to be too much of a co-incidence that there are two brothers, both marrying a Susan born in Hampstead 1801 or a Susannah also born in Hampstead 1801, both producing a son born the same year in the same area of London.

Perhaps John used the name Thomas as he had been in prison or perhaps the census enumerator collected the name incorrectly.

There is also a daughter of John and Susannah   - Fanny Susan(na) Burton CARLEN, b1832.
Do you want information about her?

Cheers, Judith

[majm]

Yes Judith ... Fantastic ...  .... and may I add....

19th C longhand used abbreviations ...

eg Jno for John and Thos for Thomas (with superscript for the "s" so it could fade out or bleed away to a blemish)

Jno v Tho in longhand .... easy to mis-read in 21st C.  Also easy to 'over-write if trying to disguise your name !

Cheers JM

[Neil Todd]

If I can I will look through the Bishops Transcripts ( A VEEEEERy Long process) To see who was actually born in South Sheilds Durham between 1790 and 1802. I have them open at the moment but they are not pageing correctly and will only go page by page. Asthere are 900odd pages I don't want to download each of them. Maybe tomorrow (today) 12,35pm when my brain is operating better.

Neil

[plewsy]

Hi Again
ok here is what i know for deffinate
Thomas Carlen was born South Shields 1784 christened 11 January 1784
i have a marraige for him to Sarah Davison 22 june 1813 in Mickelham Surrey
so im thinking the 1851 cencus is incorrect.
i have the will for sarah Carlen nee davison who died 1 may 1876 where she is a widow and leaves her money to her nephew and not a son .
im confused aswell as  i found a death for Thomas Carlen in 1845 but dismissed it as i found the 1851 cencus with his name on it .
by the way i live in South Shields and there was only one Carlen Family here .which is why i was sure the 1851 cencus should be the Thomas Carlen in my tree .
but as Judith explains its too much of a coincidence for the marriages and births of the two brothers families .
i love the idea that they changed the names because he was in jail.
yes id love Fanny susan burton calens info please

[Neil Todd]

Well I am not going to go through the Bishops Transcripts as you already have his Baptism. You should put as much info into your post when you first do them, it saves everybody else looking for same information and wastes an awful lot of time.

If Sarah left her goods and chattels to her nephew presumably John/Thomas...then he was more than likely her actual son who had changed his name to save some prison time for a possible crime as yet to be punished. You could tell the census enumerator anything and he would have to believe that, so maybe not incorrect just a few fibs. I don't know where you found the death for a Thomas Carlen as we are unable to but, I would get the DC as this will at the least have his approximate age. I think what you have is the Grandparents of the Thomas you are looking for, Sarah would have been way too old to be having children in 1845, but not the Sons (Thomas) wife SUSSANAH

IE: Thomas CARLEN 1784 = Sarah DAVISON have Sons John and Thomas b 1813-1818 or close to those dates maybe they marry later one to a Susannah one to a Sarah Somewhere around early 1840's then they have sons mid 1840's one of which is a Thomas and one of which is a John......

A whole heap of conjecture at this stage but it looks more like a family tree.....

Neil

[plewsy]

Why would i think you would look at south shields births when i asked about a bloke who went to Australia

[ev]

The last 2 posts have been moderated.
May I remind everyone that if you personally receive a reply to one of you posts that you are unhappy with then please "Report to Moderator". Do not reply in manner that may make matters worse.

Misunderstandings can easily happen on forum postings , sometimes it's hard to make a point without
sounding rude or nasty. 

So please think before you post , we are all here to help each other. 

thank you

ev

[rosball]

Hi Plewsy,
  Neil was just saying that he didn't need to look anymore for Thomas Carlen's baptism if you already had it   

cheers,
   Ros 

[plewsy]

Thankyou all for your help but id rather leave this now .
Please dont do any further research.
Cheers
Plewsy