Hellfire Club Queens Road, Manchester

[Wilbs]

Yes, thank you Heywood.  Birth & baptism certificates for Mary Ida Burns didn't help and as you state, they kept themselves to themselves.  The only person present at the deaths of the sisters were in-house as well.  Grace present at death of sister Ida and daughter Mary Ida present at the death of her mother Grace.

The only "outsider" appears to be one of the witnesses at Grace's wedding - Nicolas Bailey but I suppose that he could have come from the groom's side.  I always thought it strange that given the closeness of the sisters that Ida wasn't a witness.  I hope there wasn't a rift because of the Catholic/Protestant union.  The sisters continued to live together for another 14 years after the wedding so it turned out OK.

Best wishes

Wilbs

[wilcoxon]

"Slaters Diectory of Manchester & Salford 1886 Alphabetical part 1 and there on page 435 are the sisters as Householders living at what looks like 158 Hendham and Queens Road. 
Wilbs

Hopefully this will show the address is  113 Hendham. I can`t find it on the 1881 census showing Job Page, maybe it`s on another schedule

In the 1879 Slaters , an Ann Mangnall householder is living at the same address.

I can`t find her anywhere else.

This is all I can find on Warwick St, sadly no name to apply to. 
Liverpool Mercury Saturday, October 2, 1880
To let  house and shop. Apply on the premises 76 Warwick Street Toxteth. 

Whether this is the same address I don`t know .
Liverpool Mercury Thursday, August 13, 1885;
Wanted respectable girl accustomed to milking
76 Upper Warwick Street Toxteth

Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Thursday, September 9, 1886
As above

Not much help I`m afraid 

[heywood]

1881 piece 4008; folio 94; page 16

113 Hendham Vale has a Thomas Ford, wife Emma Eliza and child Annie.    He is a clerk in a warehouse.

I found an Ann Mangnall in 1861, Bradford Road, and then 1871 with her family in Crumpsall.

Marriage December 1878 : Annie Mangnall to Edward Jacques both give their address as 113 Hendham Vale. He is a Lithographic Printer and she is a winder. In 1881 they are living in Broughton, Salford.

So no joy there either. 

[wilcoxon]

Marriage December 1878 : Annie Mangnall to Edward Jacques both give their address as 113 Hendham Vale. He is a Lithographic Printer and she is a winder. In 1881 they are living in Broughton, Salford.
So no joy there either. 

Well -  I suppose there may be a link in  Ida`s occupation.
 Both she and Edward Jacques are in the printing business.  Still no breakthrough though???
 http://desktoppub.about.com/cs/printing/g/reliefprinting.htm

http://desktoppub.about.com/cs/printing/g/lithography.htm

1891 90 Handel St Toxteth
Ida Wilberforce 46 retired relief stamper b India 1841
Grace Wilberforce 39 born London Hammersmith  1852
Mary A Burns 2 neice b Liverpool c 1899

[Wilbs]

Thank you Wilcoxon & Heywood.  Although not the breakthrough wished for these a a few more bits to add to the picture and a step forward.  I didn't know that 76 Warwick street contained a shop (Grace ran a laundry from there and I always imagined it in a dark basement, but a shop frontage is a bit more respectable) and you have clarified the Hendham Vale address as 113.

Next stage for me would be to look at the Jacques family and see if we have names in common.

Just one question - the repeat ad in the Liverpool Mercury in Sept 1886, was it for house & shop rental or milkmaid? 

Thank you

Wilbs

[wilcoxon]

the milkmaid 

[ele002]

Maybe just a coincidence, but in the 1886 Directory, a John Page is the licensee of the 'Smedley Hotel' just further along Hendham Vale. But, is the Page connection a red herring?

Hendam Vale as far as I know, wasn't an 'affluent' area at the time, so if the sisters came into money, maybe it was after this time. I fact, I would assume the air would have been pretty foul, due to the types of industry along the river. The river certainly wasn't pleasant. There are some photos of Hendham Vale on Manchester Images
.
Wilberforce doesn't seem a common name in Manchester and the only licensee seems to be the one in Moss Side, mentioned earlier. Maybe he is connected in some way, through adoption.

As for the other residents of 113, they may mean nothing. I had many ancestors who lived around that area and they seemed to moved house every time they changed their socks.

Eric

[Wilbs]

Thank you ele002.

I suppose my next question must be why the sisters listed in the Slaters Directory.  If you had to pay to do so, and this deprived area was the only place they could afford to live, why would they spend any money just to tell people that they were Householders.  Does Householders mean that they own the property or just rent it?

I can't see any "profit" in advertising.  I could understand if they ran a business or wanted others to believe that they were better off than they were but to waste money without any gain doesn't make sense.

Of course, if they were linked to the company that possibly printed the directory as suggested previously, then may be the entry was slipped in as a free-bee.  This may be another tenuous link for me to explore.

Thank you all once again for you help and giving me another prospective on this frustrating family, and please accept my apologies for taking this thread so far off it's original topic.

Best wishes

Wilbs

[wilcoxon]

It was an archivist that told me about people paying to be included in the directories, but from the Historical Directories site that may have not been so for all.

The ways in which publishers collected data also varied considerably. Some obtained information by personal canvassing and combined the results with existing listings.
Other publishers simply asked people to send in their names together with a small payment if they wanted to be included in the directory.
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/ud/usingdir1.asp