Tracing paternal line with DNA testing

[supermoussi]

So if I have the families right it is

family 1 R Judd, Reg Judd, G Judd

family 2 grandfather, your father, your brother

You think your grandfather is the son of R Judd, there your brother and G Judd would be cousins once removed.

Therefore if all this was correct and the two took a Y DNA test at 37 or 67 markers it would show a very high correlation (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=8#511 has a little table showing how likely a match is at 5.). The higher number of markers tested the better more reliable results you will get.

So on the face of it looks like a good way forward - however I would wait and see what those more expert say in the next day or two

You are doing fine by yourself David. 

In terms of Y-DNA tests the only things I would stress are:-

 * if the Y-DNA of G Judd and the op's brother match it DOES prove that they belong to the same Judd family, but NOT that Harold Judd was the son of R Judd, although in view of the circumstances it is very likely that he was. For example, another possibility is that Harold Judd was the son of one of R Judd's brothers or cousins?

 * I would suggest a 111 marker test, perhaps a 67 marker one, but not a 37 marker test as they can sometimes be ambiguous. More is better.

[Miss.ellie]

Thanks for clarifying, this DNA thing is very confusing

[supermoussi]

Maybe an outsiders view will simplify things (or not?). You say that

"there was a strong similarity between Harold and R Judd,at different phases of their lives and also some similarities between other members of the family which we believe are too strong to overlook as coincidence."

Yes?

If so, if you find a Y-DNA STR match between your brother and G Judd then it will prove categorically beyond doubt that they are part of the same Judd family. Simples!

Whether R Judd was Harold Judd's father or uncle or cousin once removed are not really the main thing you want to find out as physical characteristics can bounce around the generations, missing one person then popping up in another. 

[Miss.ellie]

Yes, the resemblances were uncanny..
It sounds as though the DNA test is the way forward. Do you know where we get the tests and how we go about conducting them please?
Thanks

[supermoussi]

Just order them here http://www.familytreedna.com/products.aspx

The Y-DNA67 test is arguably the best compromise in your circumstances, the Y-DNA111 would give a better accuracy prediction of how closely the 2 men are related but would still not prove it, and you might well get a good result with the Y-DNA37 test but then again run the risk of getting an ambiguous result. Once you have ordered online they send you instructions and everything you need to test.

Incidentally, did R Judd have brothers and male cousins in the same area as him?

[Miss.ellie]

Thank you, I'll speak to my brother about this as he was in contact with a suitable candidate for the DNA test.
As far as I am aware the family originates from Shropshire, the Judd's were a large family, as yet though I haven't gone into great detail with the family.

[supermoussi]

I just asked because it obviously can be strong circumstantial evidence in itself. The two main outcomes of a Y-DNA test will be:-

 1) Harold definitely unrelated to R Judd within the last 700 yrs
 2) Harold and R Judd share the same "Judd" Y-DNA

If it proves to be the latter and the match suggests a recent relationship then if you find that R Judd was the only virile male Judd in the vicinity then it would be a bit of a "smoking gun"...

If there were lots of male Judds running around the area then there are obviously many more potential candidiates.

[Sandymc47]

Hi Ellie,

Just to let you know that I have in the last few months ordered 2 Y-DNA tests on my
son and also on one of my Brothers.  I did not do the full one as I didn't have the money
which is a shame.  So I just got a basic test on both of them.  You have to pay online
then they send you a test kit in the post from the USA.  In the test kit there are two phials
and 2 sticks   You have to not eat or drink for a while before you do one of the tests
by scraping the inside of your cheek in the mouth for about a minute.  You then put the
end of the stick in the phial.  You then redo this same test in a few hours and again not
straight after food or drink. You then post it back to them and get your results by e mail
about 5 weeks later.
I was really chuffed with the results even though it was only the minimum   They do have
sales and reduce the kits on occasions and that's when I bought the two mentioned.
They also state that if it isn't enough and you eventually want to go further with the testing
they can add it to the already information they have for you.  When I can afford it I will
go for that.   I did have the minimum Mitochondrial for myself but didn't find as much
information as the male line one had so will probably have to go for more information on
my own.  Still very interesting though.  I used the familytreedna site in the USA.