Author Topic: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations  (Read 18609 times)

Offline acorngen

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #36 on: Friday 30 August 13 17:39 BST (UK) »
Devon the fact I said that you and I agree on the use of A-DNA is a non starter in genealogy.  If you wish to meet the person I am speaking of could I suggest you subscribe to the rootsweb DNA mailing list and look for a person named Gregg.  I have deleted the emails I have had from him over the past few days otherwise I would have gladly supplied his email address for you.  Be warned if you come across this person he doesnt take kindly to anyone suggesting anything other than what he agrees with so much so calling me and a couple of others goofs etc
WYATT, COX, STRATTON, all from south Derbyshire and the STS, LEI border Burns Fellows Gough Wilks from STS in particular Black Country and now heading into SOP

Offline acorngen

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #37 on: Friday 30 August 13 17:41 BST (UK) »
Liz I think in my own view that the only legitimate use in genealogy for DNA is proving who is the father of a child but both have to be alive.  Oh wait we call that paternity testing :D
WYATT, COX, STRATTON, all from south Derbyshire and the STS, LEI border Burns Fellows Gough Wilks from STS in particular Black Country and now heading into SOP

Offline lizdb

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #38 on: Friday 30 August 13 17:46 BST (UK) »
As an example of what I was saying, look at this thread (which no one has replied to)

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=659649.0;topicseen

How is that complicated phrase a help in his family history research? 

A valid question.

(Red writing - yes, acorngen, I totally agree. That is my stance on the subject. But I was giving those who keep saying it is useful a chance to tell us all how, but have not got very far)


Edmonds/Edmunds - mainly Sussex
DeBoo - London
Green - Suffolk
Parker - Sussex
Kemp - Essex
Farrington - Essex
Boniface - West Sussex

census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline lizdb

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #39 on: Friday 30 August 13 18:10 BST (UK) »
Excuse me

On what I know so far, I dont see the point of DNA testing, and yes, I am sure I have expressed that view, BUT I WAS trying to be open and was simply asking for those that do see it to explain it. 

The fact that no-one seems able to that , and that now I am being insulted, seemed to just underline that probably it doesnt have a lot of point. If it did then hopefully someone would have been keen to explain it simply to me, and to probably hundreds of others who, like me, do not understand the jargon, and on the face of it cant see what use it has, but were willing to listen to an explanation - I WAS trying to be fair.

I wont post again on this thread - but will read it from time to time, in case I do get my explanation, as I am genuinely interested.
Edmonds/Edmunds - mainly Sussex
DeBoo - London
Green - Suffolk
Parker - Sussex
Kemp - Essex
Farrington - Essex
Boniface - West Sussex

census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline rt-sails

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #40 on: Friday 30 August 13 18:54 BST (UK) »
Its more than 2 or 3 sentences!
Genetic science is complicated and is composed of multiple complex concepts. I doubt that it CAN be fully explained in two or three sentences with no jargon. (God knows, I've tried!) But, here's another stab at simplifying:
  • The DNA in our cells is inherited from our parents, roughly equally from each.
  • An exception is DNA of the Y chromosome (Y-DNA), which is inherited only by males (it defines maleness) and only from fathers. Y-DNA is relatively stable over many generations and similarity of two haplotypes (i.e., particular patterns) indicates that both sample donors share a direct paternal ancestor. Differences (mutations) between haplotypes yield time-probability windows as to how many generations separate the two donors; in general, the more diffirences, the greater the separation.
  • Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is another exception. It is inherited by both genders, but only from mothers. Present technology does not permit identification of a specific direct maternal lineage from mtDNA.
  • Autosomal DNA (AuDNA) is the DNA in the 23 22 pairs of non-sex chromosomes; it is inherited about equally from each parent, who each got roughly half from each of their parents. However, AuDNA is subject to recombination and "swapping" of DNA segments between each chromosome in a pair, thus complicating analysis and interpretation.  (Oops. One of the 23 pairs is the gender-determining XX or XY; only 22 pairs are autosomal.)
Experts would say the above is an over-simplification; it leaves much out. They'd be right.

I am not trying to be awkward, but everything I have seen about DNA testing just reads like gobblygook to a lay person (and I am not totally thick, do have a basic knowledge of genetics etc), and those who are fans of it can write at great length, but to the run-of-the mill family historian, it just goes over the head.
I cannot see any worthwhile use in it, but seeing as people were saying it has a very legitimate use in genealogy, I was prepared to be openminded and invited someone to tell us exactly how. How does it have a use, how can it be used as a tool?
Using DNA in genealogy requires learning some new concepts, though the skills of analysis and evaluation learned in documentary genealogy will also be helpful. An example may illustrate:
  • Suppose your family history research leads you to two men, both with the same name, born about the same time in the same area. From the available documentation, each is an equally likely candidate.  Which is your ancestor?
  • Y-DNA would be a way to answer the question. Each man would have passed their DNA to their direct filial descendants and comparisons of the haplotypes would (likely) exclude one candidate and point to the other.

For an example using mtDNA, review the investigation showing that the skeletal remains found in Leicester were actually those of Richard III. (He, it turns out, had an uncommon form of mtDNA.)  The investigation relied about equally on documentary genealogy and DNA comparisons. See http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king.

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #41 on: Friday 30 August 13 19:29 BST (UK) »
Liz I think in my own view that the only legitimate use in genealogy for DNA is proving who is the father of a child but both have to be alive.  Oh wait we call that paternity testing :D

You have that the wrong way round Rob.
DNA can only prove that a person is not the father of a child it cannot prove a person is the father, there is always an element of doubt.
Cheers
Guy
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Offline DevonCruwys

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #42 on: Friday 30 August 13 21:57 BST (UK) »
DNA can only prove that a person is not the father of a child it cannot prove a person is the father, there is always an element of doubt.
Guy

With the new autosomal DNA tests which look at 700,000 markers there is no longer any element of doubt. You can conclusively prove parent/child relationships. I have tested myself and both parents and the predicted relationship was accurate in both cases. I've provided images below showing the match menu with the predicted relationships and the chromosome browser view showing how I have inherited half of my DNA from each parent. I have obscured the names of my matches for privacy reasons.
Researching: Ayshford, Berryman, Bodger, Boundy, Cruse, Cruwys, Dillon, Faithfull, Kennett, Keynes, Ratty, Tidbury, Trask, Westcott, Wiggins, Woolfenden.

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #43 on: Friday 30 August 13 22:28 BST (UK) »
Plenty of attachments - and very pretty!

But essentially meaningless without some sort of explanation as to what all those pretty colours mean?

Quote
With the new autosomal DNA tests which look at 700,000 markers there is no longer any element of doubt. You can conclusively prove parent/child relationships.

But then your attachments talk about mother, father, 3rd cousins, 4th cousins, 5th cousins?
How is that conclusive?
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline DevonCruwys

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #44 on: Friday 30 August 13 22:36 BST (UK) »
The first image shows the first page of my match list. I've had to remove names but there are five matches in the screenshot. The first two people on the match list are my parents who were correlty predicted to be my parents. The other three matches are three genetic cousins found in the database. The company's algorithms predict the relationship based on the amount of shared DNA.

The bottom image is the chromosome browser view. I've selected both of my parents in this view and the browser is showing each chromosome and the amount of and DNA I have in common with each parent. A child receives 50% of his or DNA from one parent and 50% from the other parent.

You can see more chromosome browser examples of different relationships here:

http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Chromosome_Browser_Examples
Researching: Ayshford, Berryman, Bodger, Boundy, Cruse, Cruwys, Dillon, Faithfull, Kennett, Keynes, Ratty, Tidbury, Trask, Westcott, Wiggins, Woolfenden.