Author Topic: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations  (Read 18510 times)

Offline DevonCruwys

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #9 on: Friday 26 July 13 22:31 BST (UK) »
What I cannot understand about the family tracing bit of DNA research is, if we all originated at/from a single source, we all should be carrying a level/marker of DNA from that source.

On the Y-line, which normally coincides with the surname, all men do carry some markers known as SNPs that were shared by our distant ancestors from thousands and thousands of years ago. SNPs occur in a cumulative sequence and the exact sequence of SNPs that men inherit depends on which particular branch of the Y-tree they belong on. You can see the Y-SNP tree here:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/index.html

There is a simplified diagram here which might make it easier to understand:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

The mtDNA tree can be found here:

http://www.phylotree.org/tree/main.htm

For genealogy purposes with Y-DNA testing we're only concerned about the markers found on the low-hanging branches of the tree. For mtDNA you are given a list of your "differences" from a reference sequence. These differences can either be compared against the Reconstructed Sapiens Reference Sequence (an inferred ancestral sequence) or the Cambridge Reference Sequence (the first full mt genome to be sequenced).

Autosomal DNA is another story altogether.



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Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #10 on: Monday 29 July 13 17:15 BST (UK) »
For those that are thinking of surname testing it is best to have a realistic view of what can be expected otherwise it can lead to disappointment.

For starters it should be noted that the nationality with the largest number of test results is American. Reasons are obviously that they have five times the population of Britain and also 25% greater GDP per capita, i.e., they have more money to spend.


The US is a melting pot from all over the world and so has a different ethnic breakdown compared to Britain. Even when you look at the part of the American population that has British origins, its breakdown is still different than that in old blighty. Whereas the largest part of the UK's populace are English, then the Scottish and finally the Welsh and Irish. American has a much larger proportion of Scottish and Irish, due to the Highland Clearances, Potato Famine, etc.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29
.......


Britain was also "a melting pot" and the English  also suffered from  "famine" (corn laws,unemployment , esp late 1830s ect)  and also land "cleareances" (enclosure)

The thing is , is that so many trees out there , especially in America , seem to be wrong . I am not blaming Americans for this , as these trees are strongly encouraged and promoted by the big companys . Also i guess a lot of Americans do not know the ins and outs of English peasant/working class history and why would they ?

But , for example
Say you have an American (the biggest  dna testers) researcher who's ancestor arrived in America from England during the early 1700s . His ancestor is called John Smith , born Smithsbridge , Smithshire , England . Through research he has linked his John to a Lord Smith of Smith Castle , Smithsbridge  , everything seems to fit . The researcher then sets up a one name study and starts a dna project . Others join the project and find they share a common ancestor . But what if that ancestor was more likely to be an English  transported convict , transported to Maryland for , say ,  poaching , or went over as an indentured servant . Whose family had worked on the land around Smithsbridge for generations BUT  are not related to the fuedal Lord Smith at all ? . Which is the most likely , when the vast majority of English were of the peasant/working class ? and when most of the everday peoples records might not have survived at all ?

I came across an online biography about an American family with the same uncommon surname as my family in North Yorkshire , England  . The biography of this family says  that "ALL" the family of this surname at one time had "lived in a castle in Scotland"  ???. But my family of this surname were agricultural labouers (i have them at about 1700) and not ,as far as i'm aware,  from Scotland . They are also in an area where in the Parish Register people are dying young , at various times , as if from hunger and disease . Some end up in the slums of Leeds , or are transported to Australia or end up in the local Workhouse . In my mind i just cannot link the Scots "castle" people with my English "agricultural  labourer" people of the same surname and it just does not inspire confidence in joining the project  i'm afraid

Offline supermoussi

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #11 on: Monday 29 July 13 17:55 BST (UK) »
The thing is , is that so many trees out there , especially in America , seem to be wrong .

Yes, that is another good point. So even if you are one of the very lucky ones and do get a DNA match, and then are lucky again in that the people you match claim to know specific British details about their ancestor, it still has a fair chance of being wrong. Not good odds of finding something reliable.  :-\

In my mind i just cannot link the Scots "castle" people with my English "agricultural  labourer" people of the same surname and it just does not inspire confidence in joining the project  i'm afraid

What you need to do is find possible English or Scottish descendants of your line and then get tested together (if they can't afford it you will need to sub them). Once you do this you will then be able to advance your research. It often takes money and effort to trace lines down to living people but can be done.

If you just take the test in blind hope though you may as well just burn £200. ;)

Offline rt-sails

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 28 August 13 18:59 BST (UK) »
What I cannot understand about the family tracing bit of DNA research is, if we all originated at/from a single source, we all should be carrying a level/marker of DNA from that source...

The above assumes that evolution of the human species has stopped; it has not. Evolution at the molecular level is a continuing process. Changes in our DNA have occurred since the appearance of homo sapiens sapiens and are still occurring.

While most of our DNA reflects the "single source", some is de novo. Changes happen according to molecular clocks whose ticks can be measured (or estimated) in generations. Careful observation and analysis allow scientists to track emergence of branches of the human family and their ages.


Offline rt-sails

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 28 August 13 20:49 BST (UK) »
As a genetic genealogist, I resist the term "Surname Tests" and prefer the more specific "Y-STR Tests". Surnames (i.e., inherited family names) are a relatively recent development and are not so fixed and immutable as often believed.

  • Disclosure: I am biased in favor of Y-STR testing. As a surname project administrator, I've seen it help many further their family histories.

The practice of using surnames came to most of Europe after 1000 AD and became universal in England as recently as 1400. Common surnames often have multiple origins (founders);. many who bear the name will not be genetically related to each other within a genealogical time frame.

Another writer mentioned NPE (non-paternal events) which result in a child bearing the name of other than its biological father's birth name. The effects of NPE tend to be cumulative as the name is passed down to succeeding generations. It's estimated that 30% to 40% of people have NPE somewhere in their family trees. Often, the fact of a NPE is found only after a Y-STR test and can present a means of overcoming a genealogical brick wall..

So what are realistic expectations for a Y-STR test?

Chances for matching are certainly improved if one recruits a known descendant of one's direct paternal ancestor to test as well. Only a NPE or wrong genealogy will result in a non-match. The downside is that a match merely confirms what one already knew.

For a "blind test" (potluck) one's matching chances much depend upon the makeup of the database to which your results are compared. A bigger database is better than a smaller one. A database with more people who have a reasonable chance of matching you is better than one with fewer. (For example, Englishmen should probably not test with a company specializing in Chinese DNA.) More inclusive is better than more restrictive.

One's chances also depend on the resolution of the test. A minimal test (12 markers) does not, in most instances, yield enough precision to eliminate ambiguities.

The frequency of your surname is a factor. Rare surnames have a much better chance of matching with the same name than do common names. However, if the name is near extinction, you may not have a close match with anyone living.

Aside: If one has a common, multi-origin name, the Y-STR test can be especially helpful in focusing research on one lineage over others with the same name.

Country of residence is presently another factor. It is true that Americans of English heritage represent only a portion of the English gene pool and that acceptance of this methodology, by comparison, has lagged in England. Participation is growing though and there's no reason why it won't eventually achieve similarly as for Americans of many ethnic backgrounds.

Most DNA surname projects for common names will have about half of participants showing Y-STR matches with surnames other than the one of the project. They can not be grouped into a "Green family" because -- no matter who else they match -- they do not match other Greens.

Expectations may not be met immediately; patience and persistence are recommended. The results have a long shelf-life and may result in matches appearing years later. Often, matches depend on the unknown person who would match you getting tested.

Y-STR testing (or DNA testing of any kind) is not a substitute for traditional, documentary genealogy; it is merely a complement. To expect DNA to come labeled with names, dates, places and other identifiers is to expect more than it can deliver.

Offline BristolClark

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 29 August 13 01:41 BST (UK) »
What I cannot understand about the family tracing bit of DNA research is, if we all originated at/from a single source, we all should be carrying a level/marker of DNA from that source.

A simple analogy would be 'Chinese Whispers.'

We are all of one descent from hundreds of thousands of years ago, but it is within the last few thousands of years that we have become different and isolated.

A good book I have read many times, and if you're interested in reading further about;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_10,000_Year_Explosion


Regards to the thread topic; I have recently discovered my paternal surname is not actually consistent with a paternal lineage. My 2xgreat-Grandfather was illegitimate, and because of that, he took on the surname of his mother and not his father, whoever that was.

What options do I have available in helping me narrowing down possible surnames for that illusive father?

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 29 August 13 07:25 BST (UK) »
The original post on this thread shows one reason why DNA genealogy is a flawed "science" it is based on misconceptions.

...The US is a melting pot from all over the world and so has a different ethnic breakdown compared to Britain. Even when you look at the part of the American population that has British origins, its breakdown is still different than that in old blighty. Whereas the largest part of the UK's populace are English, then the Scottish and finally the Welsh and Irish....

Those English ancestors would they be Roman-English, French-English, Viking-English, German-English, Angles, Saxons, Jutes or one of any group of immigrants from all over Europe and beyond? Similarly with Scotland, Wales & Ireland, the history of the countries has involved peoples from all over Europe (and beyond) inhabiting the land and interbreeding with those living there at the time.

When considering DNA there is no such thing as English, Scottish or Welsh or Irish.
At present DNA is about as useful to genealogy as a bucket shop selling histories of a family surname.

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Offline KGarrad

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 29 August 13 07:48 BST (UK) »
Well said, Guy!
I agree with you wholeheartedly! ;D

I was a little less subtle when I started my own thread some time ago:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=647118.
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Offline BristolClark

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #17 on: Thursday 29 August 13 08:41 BST (UK) »
When considering DNA there is no such thing as English, Scottish or Welsh or Irish.

Interesting consideration, Guy. Do you often "consider" there aren't any great-great-Grandparents because you can't see them? :)