Help to find a marriage please(***Completed with thanks***)

[keinname]

May I ask what cemetery index and which death index?

Cando

Australia Death Index, 1787-1985
Australia Cemetery Index, 1808-2007

You find many death in Victoria in the Australian Cemetery Index for which there is no corresponding entry on the Australian Death Index which includes Victorian deaths.

[keinname]

I think the "R" on the index for Ada's birth is the revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document

There is no revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document. The revision is the crossing out of the details of Margaret's marriage to Moore.

But R in the Victorian Indexes does not stand for Revision. For example I am looking right now at a certificate for Agnes Louisa Johnson born 5 May 1893 in Bendigo Victoria. The certificate was revised in April 1894 after a court case established that Agnes Louisa's mother Louisa Johnstone was not married to the man that she had said was Agnes Louisa's father. The revision crossed out the name and details of the father, the details that had been given of a marriage (the details were ficticious), and the  "Clingam formerly" in the middle of "Louisa Clingham formerly Johnstone". This is a distinct revision, but the index number is 10062, not 10062R.

R in the Victorian indexes stands for Repeat, and is used for when a child is born illegitimately to a woman who is either married or widowed. The birth is shown twice on the index, as in Ada's case once under the mother's married surname, and the second time under the mother's maiden surname. The surname of the child is not shown on the certificate, and as this child is illegitimate (in this case with no father named), she is shown twice on the index under both the surnames that her mother has used. Another example is Fanny Gladys Hughan/Campbell who was born on 2 Nov 1904. As her mother is shown as Elizabeth Hughan formerly Campbell, and as Fanny was born illegitimately, her  birth is shown twice on the index, once under Hughan and once under Campbell. (In this case the father was named, George Walter Butler, and he even registered the birth, but his surname is not used, and he is not shown as the father in the index.) The index for Fanny's birth uses the number 27481R. There is no revision of any type on her birth registration.

The R is used ONLY to the index. If you go onto the BDM VIC web-site and try to order a copy of the certificate and include the R you will get an error that the index number does not exist.

[majm]

May I butt in again ….. Well I will, anyways

I understand that those two indexes are available at Ancestry as part of the subscription members of Ancestry pay.

I have read:

 Australia Cemetery Index, 1808-2007
“This database is a conglomeration of several different sources. Records were primarily compiled by local family history groups or societies. ……”

Australia Death Index, 1787-1985
 “Original data: Compiled from publicly available sources”
“While these collections make up some of the most important indexes of early Australian death records, they are not necessarily 100 percent complete—compliance to registration laws, of course, varied, and Australia’s vast distances complicated most any record-keeping effort. In this collection records are available for the following span of years:
New South Wales — 1788-1945
Northern Territory — 1870-1913
Queensland — 1929-1959
South Australia — 1842-1970
Tasmania — 1803-1919
Victoria — 1836-1985
Western Australia — 1841-1980”

On the other hand, the Resources Boards for each of our States & Territories here at RChat, provide fantastic links to various BDMs and to cemeteries and often to the very indexes that seem to be Ancestry’s publicly available sources….



Cheers,  JM

[majm]

The index for Ada's birth, with no father being named in the index, clearly shows that Ada's birth was considered to be illegitimate by the registrar who recorded the details:
Corbett, Ada Woodland
Father: Corbett
Mother: Margt Corben(sic)
1894 
Cranborne
#19835R
Moore, Ada Woodland
Father: Moore
Mother: Margt Corbett
Cranborne
#19835R

The actual birth registration shows other clues that you may be able to use. This is because the birth registration gives a date and place for Margaret's marriage to Michael Moore.

When and where born:
28th May 1894
Langmarine
Shire of Cranborne
County of Mornington
Name and whether present of not:
Ada Woodland
not present
(Note: no surnames recorded in this column)
Sex:
Female
Name & Profession of Father, Age & birthplace of Father:
Illegitimate
When & where married, Issue Living & deceased (of this marriage):
8th January 1879, Sherwood
(Note: Just days before Margaret's 16th birthday)
Cornelius 14
Richard 13
Mary 11
Maggie 9
(Note: Sydney Walter not listed as he is not a child of this marriage)
THIS SECTION THEN CROSSED OUT AND WRITTEN ACROSS IT:
Cancelled, Illegitimate
Name and maiden surname of Mother, Age & birthplace of Mother:
Margaret Moore nee Corbett
31 years, Sherwood
Signature, descriptive & address of Informant:
Margaret Moore
mother
Somerville
after declaration made as by law required*
Witness of birth:
Mrs Wiltshire
When & where registered:
21st August 1894, Cranborne
Signature of Deputy Register:
M Duff
acting registrar

I think the "R" on the index for Ada's birth is the revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document

There is no revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document. The revision is the crossing out of the details of Margaret's marriage to Moore.

But R in the Victorian Indexes does not stand for Revision.

This is not making good sense to me at all, sorry.   

Cheers,  JM

[Raylen]

I think the "R" on the index for Ada's birth is the revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document

(In this case the father was named, George Walter Butler, and he even registered the birth, but his surname is not used, and he is not shown as the father in the index.) The index for Fanny's birth uses the number 27481R. There is no revision of any type on her birth registration.

The R is used ONLY to the index. If you go onto the BDM VIC web-site and try to order a copy of the certificate and include the R you will get an error that the index number does not exist.

Just for information
From Vic BDM

BUTLER  Fanny Gladys
1904  Melb West
Father:  Geo Walter   Mother: Elizth Campbell
Reg# 27481R

Raylen

[majm]

and

May I butt in again ….. Well I will, anyways

I understand that those two indexes are available at Ancestry as part of the subscription members of Ancestry pay.

I hope these two links work

http://search.ancestry.com.au/search/db.aspx?dbid=1779

http://search.ancestry.com.au/search/db.aspx?dbid=1266




Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Perhaps an email asking Vic BDM what "R" represents.... would be sensible   

Cheers,  JM

[keinname]

Just for information
From Vic BDM

BUTLER  Fanny Gladys
1904  Melb West
Father:  Geo Walter   Mother: Elizth Campbell
Reg# 27481R

Thanks Raylen, I had missed this entry on the index. So her birth is shown on the index 3 times, once under Campell with no father named, once under Hughan with no father named, and once under Butler with her father named, and each time with the R added to the index number.

Just to reiterate - there is NO revision of any type on Fanny's birth registration.

Perhaps an email asking Vic BDM what "R" represents.... would be sensible   

The R is ONLY on the index - it is not to do with Vic BDM. Again if you try to order the certificate from Vic BDM using the R you will only get an error. Vic BDM do not use the R.

[judb]

I sent off to them a couple of days ago to ask the very same question, JM    No reply as yet!

As was stated previously (perhaps on another thread)  there is no legal requirement to use a particular surname at all, and this should be remembered especially when looking at historic certificates.  An informant did not have to supply any form of documentation to prove who s/he was, nor to prove any other piece of information given to the registrar.

I have also asked Vic BMDs how and when the indexes were compiled as we have all seen mistranscriptions, sometimes very peculiar ones, at that.  It is my understanding that indexers had no list of approved abbreviations for place names which is why many of them are difficult to figure out and why there may be more than one abbreviation for the same place.

EDIT to add: this comment does not apply to this thread really but I often see information which assumes that, because a registration was done in a particular place that the actual B, M or D happened in that place.  I have in mind a woman who died in Newtown NSW but her death registration (and subsequent burial) took place on the South Coast.

Judith