Author Topic: Any other way to find his parents  (Read 10643 times)

Offline keinname

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Re: Any other way to find his parents
« Reply #36 on: Thursday 04 July 13 18:41 BST (UK) »
YOUR Adolphe Norman was:
(1) NOT the person in the gaol record. That man's name was Norman Adolphus which is evident by looking at thge pages before and after his. The record was in the order of first name followed by surname. This man, born in France in 1858 and immigrating with his family at the age of 10 in 1868 is NOT your man. That this other man deserted his wife as did your man is a co-incidence.
(2) NOT the A. Norman who immigrated as A.Norman on the "Sorata" on 11 August 1884. As you stated he cannot be both at sea travelling towards Australia and being married in NSW at the same time. There was another A.Norman from France who came into Sydney from San Francisco on 28 Aug 1822 on the "Townsend" at the age of 25 but there is no way to know if he is your man.
(3) NOT the man in England in 1901 and 1911. This man has a wife and children and his demongraphics do not fit your man.

This does not help find anything on your man, just eliminates the men who are not yours.

The spelling of your man's first name as both Adolphus and Adolphe, and his surname as both Normand and Norman? Forms were filled in by the clerk, not by the individual. Many spellings were used based on what the clerk heard.

"Elizabeth Mary Norman v. Adolphe Norman (with custody of children)" just means custody of the children formed a part of the case.

The surname Norman does not suggest where your man came from in France. Although he may have been born in Normandy, he just as easily may not have been. His surname doed not indicate his place of birth. Norman or Normand is a common surname, and is a surname originally based on a place name just like the surnames of London, Stratford, York, etc.

That your man did not provide details of his parents when he married suggests that he did not know who his parents were. For example he may have been raised as an orphan. That he did not know who his parents were is going to make it extremely hard, if not impossible, for you to find them.

Offline carol8353

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Re: Any other way to find his parents
« Reply #37 on: Thursday 04 July 13 18:57 BST (UK) »
I found him the 1911 Census
Name:    Adolphus Norman
Age in 1911:    52
Estimated Birth Year:    abt 1859
Relation to Head:    Head
Gender:    Male
Birth Place:    France
Civil Parish:    West Ham
County/Island:    Essex
Country:    England

Adolphus Norman    52
Annie Norman    43
Lilian Norman    15
Herbert Norman    12
Griffin Figwell    22 ( Boarder)

That's in England  ;D ;D ;D

I didn't realise that they lived over here !!!
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline johnxyz

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Re: Any other way to find his parents
« Reply #38 on: Thursday 04 July 13 21:41 BST (UK) »
This has reached the stage where I would be inclined to sit down with a (large) sheet of paper and start writing down each possible Adolphus Norman / Norman Adolphe with the related facts for each person and then trying to see what if anything links the various people.

I'm of the opinion that the 1884 marriage / 1885 christening / 1894 divorce do link to the same man. Call him A.

We then appear to have 2 immigration dates - B in 1868 on Alexander ( from the convict record), C in 1884 on Sarota. Dates indicate C and A are distinct. But dates have been known to be wrong. I would wish to double check Sarota arrival date.

B is also associated with events in 1890 / 1892 / 1898. The 1890 desertion case and 1894 divorce hint there may be a link. The geography is not wrong. ( That is deliberately phrased that way !) But it needs much more than that to prove anything.

Then there is D arrived on Townsend ( is selkcerf0142's 1822 a typo for 1882?)

Next E from the UK 1901 / 1911 census. GIven a UK mariage in 1889 and child born 1899ish we have to say he is separate.

And finally F your Australian burial record. What more is known about him? Does any of it fit with any of the above?

You also need to think about the lack of any other Norman Adolphe data. Strictly one cannot draw any conclusions from that - it merely means no relevant data has been found.

I would also start to test all "the family say that" statements. This is something of a tangle, with a potentially fairly slippery subject.



 

Offline keinname

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Re: Any other way to find his parents
« Reply #39 on: Friday 05 July 13 00:56 BST (UK) »
Quote
is selkcerf0142's 1822 a typo for 1882?

Yeap ::)

Quote
B in 1868 on Alexander ( from the convict record), C in 1884 on Sarota

You have forgotten A.Norman from France who came into Sydney from San Francisco on 28 Aug 1882 on the "Townsend" at the age of 25.

Date of arrival of the steam-ship "Sorata" IN SYDNEY via Adelide and Melbourne.
"The Orient Company's R.M.S. Sorata arrived yesterday from London. She entered the heads at 9.40 a.m., and after being passed by the port heath officer, was berthed at Circular Quay at 11 o'clock."
Sydney Morning Herald, 11 Aug 1884.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28367999
In other words the date of arrival in Sydney was 10 August 1884.




Offline ~MERLIN~

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Re: Any other way to find his parents
« Reply #40 on: Friday 05 July 13 02:54 BST (UK) »
I have found a newspaper article from The Sydney Morning Herald 21 Nov 1894
Decrees Absolute
Decrees Nisi were made absolute in the following :
Elizabeth Mary Norman v. Adolphe Norman ( with custody of children)

A copy of the divorce file can be a wealth of information including documents such as:-
    petitions for the dissolution of marriage
    affidavits (sworn statements)
    petitions for maintenance
    marriage certificates
    decrees nisi
    decrees absolute
    correspondence


Divorce No: 1465
Year: 1894
Name: NORMAN Elizabeth Mary
Respondent: NORMAN Adolphe

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0v53/


Offline keinname

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Re: Any other way to find his parents
« Reply #41 on: Friday 05 July 13 03:11 BST (UK) »
I know I said in an earlier post that Adolphe Norman who married in August 1884 and Norman Adolphe who had a gaol record could not be the same man, but now I am not so sure.

The Norman Adolphe of the gaol description book is mentioned a number of times in the New South Wales Police Gazettes in the period 1890-1897. He was well known to the police, and spend periods in gaol. He is always shown as Norman Adolphe in these records with Norman as his first name and Adolphe was his surname. But could he have reverted his first name and surname for his marriage and his life with his wife? (Or perhaps the police dealings was the reversion.) Could this man have been the Adolphe Norman who married in Ryde on 7 August 1884, fathered a child with the surname of Norman in 1885, and was sued for divorce through the courts in 1894 as Adolphe Norman?

The Norman Adolphe who had dealings with the police was:

(1) arrested for the offence of passing a cointerfeit coin to Catherine Hiney, in May 1890 [14 May 1890 Police Gazette] as a result of which he was tried in Sydney, and he was found not guilty.
Coining at Carlingfford.
NORMAN ADOLPHE Of Carlingford, pleaded not guilty at the Quarter Sessions on Wednesday to a charge of passing a counterfeit shilling on Catherine Hiney, landlady of the Eastwood Hotel, Ryde. Adolphe had been iving in Carlingford for some years, and lately picked up with a tinker with whom he travelled about Ryde . A number of spurious coins had been passed on several townspeople, and suspicion was aroused against the tinker; but he was too cunning and disappeared before he could be arrested. Adolphe was watched, and caught passing the shilling in question in exchange for a glass of beer, and on the hut at Carlingford where he lived with the tinker being searched a mould for coining the shilling and several bad shillings were discovered. His defence was a total denial of all guilty knowledge, and that he had been made a catspaw of by the tinker. After deliberating for four hours the jury returned a verdict of not guilty, and Adolphe was discharged.

Cumberland Argus and Fruitgrowers Advocate, 31 May 1890

(2) 1ST CONVICTION. Then he was back before the courts in October 1890 for wife desertion for which he was fined £2 15s or in default 12 months gaol. (He was married but their is no marriage found in the name of Norman Adolphe [or similar].)

(3) 2ND CONVICTION. Next he was charged at Parramatta Court on 6 Feb 1892 and sentenced to 2 years hard labour for passing a cointerfeit coin to Mary Anne Thurston and Anne Daley [10 Feb 1892 Police Gazette, gaol record]. He was sent to Parramatta Gaol. He received remission on 28 Sep 1893 and was released from gaol early [11 Oct 1893 Police Gazette].

(4) 3RD CONVICTION. He received a sentence of 3 years on 31 Jan 1895 in Sydney for again passing a counterfeit coin to Mildred Adams. He was at first sent to Parramatta Gaol [6 Mar 1895 Police Gazette, gaol record]. This is recorded as his 3rd Conviction in the Police Gazette of 11 Aug 1897 when he was in Trial Bay Gaol.

(5) 4TH CONVICTION (not on his gaol record).
SATURDAY, MARCH 19.
(Before Mr. G. M. Pope J.P.)
OBSCENE LANGUAGE.
Norman Adolphe, hailing from La Belle France,
[note La Belle France is not a place, it just means beautiful France]
demonstratively denied the soft impeachment that he had on the previous evening made use of obscene language in Glebe-Street, Ryde.
Senior Constable Ross gave evidence to the effect that he saw the defendant come out of the Steamboat Hotel about 8 o'clock on Friday evening and go in the direction of Gladesville. Overtaking two females, he interfered with them, and persisted in forcing his company upon them despite their protests. One of the women said she would give him in charge if he did net leave her and her companion alone, and it was then that Adolphe made use of the obscene language complained of. Witness, who had followed in company with Constable Kelly, thereupon arrested him. The prisoner went quietly enough for about 300 yards or so, and then he resisted most violently. It was with great difficulty that the two police officers handcuffed him, and then be had to be carried to the lock-up by three policemen— the full strength of the Ryde detachment.
Fined 20s, or 14 days' imprisonment.

Cumberland Argus and Fruitgrowers Advocate, 26 Mar 1898
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/85844161

(6) 5TH CONVICTION. In Newcastle in Jun 1898 he gets 20s or in default 7 days gaol for travelling on a boat without paying his fare.

The details that this man gave to police about when he immigrated appear to be incorrect. He said he immigrated at the age of 10. He said he immigrated on the Alexander in 1868. The newspapers reveal 2 ships by that name in 1868, an "Alexander" plying between Australian ports, and an "Alexander Duthie" which arrived on 8 Jul 1868 from London. Passengers were:
Mr. and Mrs. Dashwood and servant, Mr. and Miss McKenzie and servant, Mrs. McNab 9 children and servant, Mrs. Rolliston and two children, Miss Rolliston, Dr. Campbell, Mrs. McLean, Miss M. Douglas, Messrs. J. Marks, Cole, and Stephens. [Please note that these were all paying passengers.]
Sydney Morning Herald, 9 Jul 1868
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13169085
The only way that he could have been on the "Alexander Duthie" was if he was a boy crew-member and he jumped ship.

Offline rosball

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Re: Any other way to find his parents
« Reply #42 on: Friday 05 July 13 03:20 BST (UK) »
Here is an excellent thread explaining what to do about blanks on historic NSW marriage certs by MAJM
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html

Essentially advice is to contact the church archives as not all info was sent onto registry.  (I followed the advice and got all the missing info from church archives for one of my lot )

cheers,
   Ros

adding : If you are not in Sydney then I can go and photograph the divorce records for you - as Merlin said they usually have lots of info  :)
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Offline majm

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Re: Any other way to find his parents
« Reply #43 on: Friday 05 July 13 03:29 BST (UK) »
Yes,  Ros has given you a link to a thread I prepared re seeking out the info that the NSW BDM did not record on their marriage records in the period up to 1895. 

The couple DID provide the info re their parentage, and NSW BDM recognises that their own records often fail to have all the info that they were meant to have.

" .....The Registry's records from these years are not complete and it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate " .....

http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/historyofRegistrysRec.htm

Cheers,  JM
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Offline Leanne.

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Re: Any other way to find his parents
« Reply #44 on: Friday 05 July 13 04:40 BST (UK) »
I know I said in an earlier post that Adolphe Norman who married in August 1884 and Norman Adolphe who had a gaol record could not be the same man, but now I am not so sure.

The Norman Adolphe of the gaol description book is mentioned a number of times in the New South Wales Police Gazettes in the period 1890-1897. He was well known to the police, and spend periods in gaol.

Yeah I've found him in the gaol books and newspapers but I don't have any proof it's the same guy. As I said he is always called Norman Adolphe. I am unable to find any other record for a Norman Adolphe.

Thank you so much for taking the time and doing all that research for me, I really appreciate it.There is some info there that I hadn't read before.

Researching Whitby from England & Australia, Taylor from Scotland & Australia, Norman/Normand from France & Australia. Other last names in my tree Raeburn, Appleby, Ingram, Lynch, Hayes, Baker, Ketley, Newman, Dobson, Holdsworth, Summerill, Summerell.