Zephaniah Fisher - wouldn't you think an unusual name would make it easy?

[Pheno]

Hi, I've followed my husband's paternal ancestry back to a Joseph Fisher who appears in the 1861 census for Brimington, Derbyshire (RG 9; Piece: 2531; Folio: 31; Page: 5) as Head with a family that includes a son Zephaniah Fisher and a brother in law Joseph Ripley.

In 1851 Joseph Ripley (HO107; Piece: 2147; Folio: 826; Page: 32) is a head of household with a brother in law Joseph Fisher so I'm fairly sure this is the same person.  There is also an Ann Fisher sister in law and Joseph Ripley is married to Eliza who must be the Fisher connection.

In 1841 there is a family (HO107; Piece: 1336; Book: 7) consisting of Zephaniah Fisher with presumably wife Elizabeth (also aged 40 and born in the county i.e. Yorkshire) and children Mary, Joseph, Sarah, Edward and Ann and also in the household are Joseph Ripley and wife Eliza which all fits neatly with my previous finds.

In 1841 Zephaniah's age is rounded down to 40 but born Yorkshire, the county in which he is living.

On Familysearch there are 2 Zephaniah Fishers baptised at St. Peter Sheffield, in 1803:
Zephania Fisher (female) bp 13/3/1803 parents Joseph and Mary Fisher  and
Zepheniah Fisher (male) bp 1/5/1803 (born 25/3/1803) parents Thomas and Ruth Fisher.

I know naming patterns are not conclusive but by 1841 my Zephaniah Fisher's 2 oldest children are called Mary and Joseph and there is no sign of a Thomas or Ruth.  So first question is: are the female and male indicators on familysearch correct - do the original entries really say 'daughter of' and 'son of' which is presumably how these determinations been made?

There is a Zephaniah Fisher/Elizabeth Beeley marriage on 26/9/1825 at Chesterfield, Derbyshire although he is recorded as Lephaniah Fisher.  Thee is an Eliza Beeley/Joseph Ripley marriage in Dec qtr 1839 registered in Sheffield, Yorkshire and, on familysearch, a christening record for an Elizabeth Ripley whose parents are Joseph Ripley/Eliza Beeley Ripley in Barnsley in 1869 although I believe Elizabeth was born in 1850. This leads me to think that Eliza is the daughter of Elizabeth Beeley who married Zephaniah Fisher rather than his daughter.  Again a factor in the naming pattern.

Bringing Zephaniah forward he appears in 1851 (HO107; Piece: 2340; Folio: 502; Page: 20), 1861 (RG 9; Piece: 3479; Folio: 78; Page: 26), 1871 (RG10; Piece: 4678; Folio: 126; Page: 27) and 1881 (RG11; Piece: 4653; Folio: 96; Page: 39) censuses all with a wife called Mary born about 1815 in Derbyshire.  I assumed that Elizabeth had died between 1841 and 1851 and that Zephaniah had remarried.  There is a recorded marriage between a Zephaniah Fisher and either a Mary Shaw or a Mary Stokes in Jun qtr 1848 at Sheffield.

However Zephaniah and Mary have a 2 year old son called Joseph with them in the 1851 census but Zephaniah already has a son called Joseph who was with him and Elizabeth in 1841 and has not died (see earlier 1851 census ref). 2nd question: is he likely to have another son called Joseph during the lifetime of the previous one? I assume this second Joseph does die as he is not with the family in any subsequent census.

A newspaper entry for Sheffield reports the death on 5/11/1881 of 78 year old Zephaniah Fisher for many years a local mail driver.

All well and good except that his occupation in 1861 was listed as Pensioner (he had previously been an Ag Lab/labourer) and in 1881 it was Chelsea Pensioner (Army).  Not in any census was his occupation given as mail driver.  Doing some more searching I discovered Army papers on FindMyPast for a Zephamin? Fisher b.c.1806.  The scanned docs include attestation papers for a Zephaniah rather than Zephamin Fisher at Hull on 13/3/1824 aged 18.  He enlisted into the 17th Regiment of Foot, 1st Battalion of the Royal Leicestershire Regiment, Service No. 309.  At a hearing in Aden on 24/10/1844 his discharge due to ill health was recommended which actually took place at Chatham on 28/10/1845.  His service record states that of his 20 years and 237 days service 13½ years were spent abroad, 6½ in New South Wales and 8½ in the East Indies which actually meant India I think as it states that he took part in the famous 1839 storming and capture of the fortress of Ghuznee in Afghanistan and was present at the assault and capture of Khelat.

Regiment records online indicate that the 1st Btn arrived in Australia on 8/11/1830 and departed directly to India on 4/3/1836.

3rd question: going back to the 1841 census how could Zephaniah and Elizabeth (Beeley) have had those children?  I guess Mary and Joseph were a possibility but what about Sarah 1832, Edward 1834 and Ann 1837?

Did he return from years abroad to find a wife with at least 3 more children than he had left behind?  Did he abandon her and the children and marry Mary in 1848 and start a new family? Did he assume that Joseph b. 1829/30 was not his and have another Joseph?  Does the naming of two sons Joseph indicate his parentage might be Joseph and Mary rather than Thomas and Ruth?

Sorry that this entry is so lengthy but I wanted to make sure that everything I knew about Zephaniah Fisher was listed.  Any help in sorting out the answers to these questions or convincing me that I have headed down the wrong path somewhere and that Zephaniah Fisher was not an uncommon name would be most appreciated.

Regards, Pheno

[sillgen]

Not sure if you have these but there are burials for Zephaniah Fisher in St John's Sheffield. 
1844 age 44 so could be the 1841 census one.     Worth looking at the original entry to see if it gives more information.
1858 age 5 months
1881 age 78 at Eccleshall All Saints so the one you have the death for.

[Calverley Lad]

A record from the Sheffield Indexers website - http://www.sheffieldindexers.com/
Fisher, Zephaniah (of Sheffield, born 1841-06-17).
     Baptised July 4, 1841, by W Smith at Sheffield Parish Church, Church Street, Sheffield.
     Parents name(s) are Elizabeth & Zephaniah (Labourer).

 1841 Census record:Fisher, Zephania of Manor Wood Coliery, Sheffield Park. Aged 40 years.
    (Piece #1336/7, folio 54a, enumeration district 18.)
Brian
     

[sillgen]

Have you looked to see if there is a birth registration for the Ann Fisher born c1837?    freebmd does show a possible one though it is a common name.   You could consider getting that certificate to discover whose child she is. 
Looking at the original church registers is a must here.  You can hire the film to search at your nearest LDS family history centre.  They are worldwide and listed on familysearch.   You would then know if the vicar specified the sex of the child in 1803.    It varied as to how diligent they were, though most did.  However, the transcriber may not have got it right.
Just as a matter of interest if the age was rounded down to 40 as it should have been in 1841 then the birth could have been back to c1797.   Not all records are on familysearch so again the actual registers are important.
This is a complicated one!

[Pheno]

Thanks sillgen and Brian for bothering to trawl through this missive.

I hadn't thought of getting the Ann Fisher certificate although if it says Zephaniah and Elizabeth as does the 1841 baptism that Brian found then I am no further forward.

Zephaniah just cannot have been producing children in England for an 1841 baptism (as Brian found) and fighting in Afghanistan at the same time!

Could Elizabeth have simply baptised any children she did have in Zephaniah's absence saying that he was the father, even if he hadn't been around for years, or would they both have to have been physically present in church do you know?

I really am beginning to think that there must be two Zephaniah's, one who settled down in Sheffield and had children with Elizabeth and another who went off to Australia and Afghanistan with the Army and then returned to England, married Mary and had children.  If this was the case then I wonder what happened to Zephaniah and Elizabeth then as they seem to disappear after the 1841 census and their children were scattered by 1851.

In which case I should think they must be related - what are the chances of there being two unrelated Zephaniah Fishers in Sheffield at the same time?  This again leads me to question whether the two Zephaniah baptisms in 1803 really were different sexes - if they were both male that would fit this scenario much better.

Haven't ever looked at a film in my local LDS centre - will need to look into the process, but thanks for the suggestion.  Much more practical than making a trip to Sheffield.

Pheno

[Annette7]

The Zephaniah married to Mary after 1841 is not your Zephaniah.

Your Zephaniah Fisher was buried 24/11/1844 Sheffield, aged 44 and is clearly not the one who was in the army.

Annette

[afossil]

Not sure if you have these but there are burials for Zephaniah Fisher in St John's Sheffield. 
1844 age 44 so could be the 1841 census one.     Worth looking at the original entry to see if it gives more information.

It really would be worth looking at this.  I would agree that is it probably yours. 

[Calverley Lad]

Sorry to put the cat among the pigeons
What does anyone make of the listings on freebmd?
Just entered Zephaniah Fisher - All events/all areas, and out comes a list.
 Brian

[Pheno]

Hi Brian, I did exactly that yesterday and think I can account for most of the entries as:
1. The June 1848 marriage is Zephaniah and Mary Shaw/Stokes.
2. The 1854 birth is Zephaniah and Elizabeth's grandson through their son Joseph (b 1830ish).
3&4 Can't account for the 1857 birth or the 1858 death but I assume they are a child died young.  Prob not another grandson for Z and Elizabeth as only Joseph survived to adulthood, their other son Edward d. 1845.  Perhaps a child for Z and Mary following their 1848 marriage.
5. Dec 1881 death is the one mentioned in the Sheffield newspaper - mail driver but also the Z who married Mary Shaw/Stokes.
6. June 1882 marriage is the grandson of 2 above marrying Lydia Rimington in Derbyshire.
7 & 8. I'm presuming this is the same person of whom I knew nothing until trawling Ancestry tree entries yesterday.  He is on a couple of trees and used them to look backwards as far as these people had gone and parents/grandparents were steadfastly Welsh with no discernible link to my Zephaniah Fishers.
9. The death of the same Zephaniah Fisher as in 2 & 6 above.

However, on this list there is no entry for the 1841 baptism that Brian found earlier nor is the burial of a 6 year old in 1848 mentioned on familysearch, listed.  Again I am assuming that these are one and the same person.

Is there a 3rd Zephaniah Fisher in the Sheffield mix?  If not why is the Z with Mary recorded as Labourer/Pensioner/Chelsea Pensioner on the censuses and never a mention of mail driver when the newspaper obit specifically mentions this as his job for the past few years?

Pheno